Crop circles

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by bgruagach

They are hoaxes.

The only crop circles that I'm aware of which were not produced by humans were very crude circles produced by weather phenomenon -- basically small whirlwinds, localized tornadoes, what would be called "dust devils" in some places.

The complex ones have indeed been produced in the course of a single night by mere humans. It's been done on film to show how it's done.

Crop circle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia gives a good summary of the pro-paranormal explanations as well as the skeptical ones. They have references and links for those who are interested in learning more. (Personally I have to admit that the skeptic side is pretty convincing. It would be romantic if the complex ones were of non-human origin, but the evidence is overwhelmingly against that.)

Aw, I love the way you are always scientifically objective.

Bah!! No I don't!! Why do you have to pooh-pooh on mystery with all of this *science* gobbedlygook??!! What exactly is it that you are afraid of not being able to explain away?

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I watched a documentary on crop circles.. They followed a group of well known crop circle makers round and watched how they made very complex designs in hours on private land. I've not seen anything more complex then what they were making. It's all about method and geometry. Get a piece of string and nail it to the ground, grab the other end of it and follow it round while using a simple stick to accurately bend the crops and treading them down has already simply got you a circle in 2 minutes. Now imagine how you can manipulate the compass effect on crop circles. The more adventurous ones use other methods to get a whole variation of different shapes and sizes, geometric and non geometric.

Many farmers have been known to charge people to view crop circles on there farms. Some may even ask for permission to produce a crop circle and get it. To other farmers its a nuisance.

Yes. A simple explanation for everything.

But what about the people who are perpertrating these hoazes over time? Let's think about that. Who are they? Are they a dedicated inner-circle group? Or are they a loosely-knit anarchist conglomerate? Do they have an agenda? Are they out to just play global pranks, or are they getting a cut from the farmers? What's their motivation? Seriously, would any of *you* naysayers spend valuable time traveling, researching symbolism, thinking up patterns of movement, networking with cooperative farmers, covering your tracks, and the like, simply to continue an almost two-decades long hoax?

No, I don't think these crop circles are hoaxes. But I do think that they freak people out, and some people like to run from them because they are strange, seeking to explain them away, make them familiar. This to me is similar to many academics who spend their time engaged in various pedantries, arguing a point for years, dissecting it, refining it and complicating it from their particular angle, dismissing the possibilities of other perspectives, because to do so would shake their clung-to "scientific" beliefs. But science shouldn't be about clinging, it was supposed to be about inquiry and exploring. It is not only about disproving, but having a sense of wonder. And I guess that is what irritates me most--where is the sense of wonder?

Pardon my digression and rant...

[ardenz]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Pardon my digression and rant...

you are not digressing and ranting, Pathless...

this thread is in the Alternative section, even though I did ask at the start as to whether these could be hoaxes or not, I was posing the question as to what they could mean?

As it is in this section are we not able to digress and ask ourselves questions as to a mysterious source? Isn't mystery what we discuss at comparative religions ?

The book I mentioned at the beginning:Vital Signs by Andy Thomas was a fairly balanced account, written by someone who is in a group who monitor and measure Crop circles in Wiltshire.

F**k Wikipedia

some of the more recent ones seem to have global imagery, lines of longtitude.... Temporary Temples - Image Library - It is interesting to see the progression year on year. I agree, Pathless, how could a group of hoaxers have been planning and making these complicated patterns year on year.



try making this one with a bit of string and boards - the perspective is amazing - kind of like looking down from ontop of skyscrapers with a twelve pointed star central

ardenz

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Way to address the scientifically verifiable changes at cellular levels ....

I'm still waiting for a refutation of the points I listed. Anyone read the article?

This is precisely how we know that boards and string are NOT being used for the vast majority of the circles.

Of course, this is to say nothing about all the electronic equipment that gets affected in crop circles, or the more subjective experiences of those who go into them. This may be less measurable than the points I've already raised, but as far as the boards & string idea - all it takes is one genuine crop circle, to reveal the hoaxers for the glory glory seekers that they are.

Except that we've got thousands ... (okay, hundreds, I dunno, but you get the idea )

Apparent changes to the plants at the cellular level found in crop circles are not exactly undisputed proof that crop circles are of supernatural or extraterrestrial origin. There are some skeptical articles on precisely this point at Special Crop Circles which should be read if you are serious about settling the controversy. (Note that the website lists the most recent material at the top -- reading the articles linked there from the bottom to the top would take you through the chronology of articles.)

There is also some rather harsh criticism of the claims of cellular changes in this skeptical FAQ page about crop circles.

[flowperson]

Ardenz...Thanks for the image. Here's more about that particular one:

http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/a...ithy2007a.html

There are imagery precedents for this stuff which occur in one of the more mysterious documents which was believed to have been created in the mid-fifteenth century called the Voynich Manuscript. It is housed in a rare document library at Yale University and you can find out all that is known to date and has been made public here:

http://www.voynich.nu/

The particular images I was referring to as relevant to the crop image that you posted are here:

http://www.voynich.nu/q09/index.html#f67

By the way, The Rand Corporation studied the as yet uncoded Voyich Manuscript in great detail in the 80's and early 90's but have not made their findings (if any) public. Looks like they privatized their efforts beginning in the 90's and of course it's all behind the veil now. This is something I've been following for about fifteen years now, and my opinion is that it has to do with primal Creation techniques and skills. Have fun !

flow....

[ardenz]

thanks Flow, thats where I saw it too .. on Crop Circle connector. It is a very mysterious and complicated one.
A 16th C Manuscript and a defence think tank with Pentagon links ... the plot thickens.

Ard

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by ardenz

Hi,

Sorry I've been away for a few weeks - yes I would be a sceptic too, but some part of me likes the idea that there is another dimension. A fence sitter again am I .

Well let me clear it up for you.. lol it's bs. ... ugh what is the use lol... I know people that showed people a circle they made and they swore it was "aliens" lol then they told them it was fake and walked them through how to make a circle.... Nope... Still was aliens... lol.

[ardenz]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Well let me clear it up for you.. lol it's bs. ... ugh what is the use lol... I know people that showed people a circle they made and they swore it was "aliens" lol then they told them it was fake and walked them through how to make a circle.... Nope... Still was aliens... lol.

lol lol lol lol to you ....I never mentioned Aliens.

The team that did these circles, show me their practice pieces and demos please...especially for the really complicated ones illustrated on the first post of this thread. A grainy video on utube of some guys with a few ropes and board during the day...NOT. Also the diagrams drawings please.

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by ardenz

lol lol lol lol to you ....I never mentioned Aliens.

The team that did these circles, show me their practice pieces and demos please...especially for the really complicated ones illustrated on the first post of this thread. A grainy video on utube of some guys with a few ropes and board during the day...NOT. Also the diagrams drawings please.

Why would they need to do "test" circles first? And what's to say that some of the crop circles done previously and also assumed to be supernatural weren't the "test" ones?

(The literature on crop circles actually comments pretty regularly how the circles seem to be getting more complex. In the early days they were just circles. Now we're getting all sorts of patterns.)

If you want to see circlemakers in action, check out ¤ c i r c l e m a k e r s ¤ as just one website where circlemakers show their stuff.

[ardenz]

I saw that website bgruagach, and yes they can make some claims to have made some circles. The book they advertise I wouldn't buy - the samples they gave don't look very good to me if they are constructions of how they actually make them. Then they also give pictures on their site of the new circles, not claiming to have made them or not, so I wonder if they are just hanging on to the whole phenomonen themselves like Doug and Dave, two earlier crop circle makers who claimed to have made them.

I don't deny that these designs couldn't be made on CAD or on paper etc.. or that they couldn't be put together with the right amount of people knowing what they were doing, but, and just one example: some of the central points (to put the stakes) are outside the the circles, for example to make lines of latitude. Someone would have to put it there without disturbing crops. I know that you could get in through the tractor paths but not everywhere else unless one could float. There are other examples I could give.

I am an artist myself and understand geometry.. whoever or whatever makes some of them or most of them they still are beautiful.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by ardenz

I am an artist myself and understand geometry.. whoever or whatever makes some of them or most of them they still are beautiful.

Try and make an honest living as a farmer... And then tell me how beautiful they are when some bunch of scrotes deface one of your crop fields...

[ardenz]

I believe your a bit of an artist yourself, 17th.

just saw the group picture on the photos section...great job! I havn't shown myself yet!!

[AndrewX]

Pathless, I'd like to second your excellent and passionate post!

But just to be safe, I'm going to take a look at the links you provided, Ben - Special Crop Circles and 3.7.4: What about cellular changes in plants within crop circles? - since I'd really like to be made the fool (or at least just corrected on this one).

I know it's the wrong thread, but I do hope you wouldn't dare try to tell us there are no such things as UFOs ... or that we lack, as yet, any kind of empirical evidence, yadda yadda.

Heck, I'd believe it was Devas making the crop circles, if that's where the evidence led us ... but right now, I'd bet a small country that it's ET.

cheers,

~Andrew

[Agaliarept]

I have a theory that it could be an earth god or series of earth gods trying to convey to us idiot humans.

[greymare]

If crop circles were a message to us. Are we reading or listening or are we just looking at the pretty pictures?