Creation or Evolution: The Statistics!!!

[bob x]

sure. blame the falsehood on american christians. atheist evolutionists have an obsession of spreading falsehoods about subjects & expect everyone to just believe the theories that pop out of their heads...

No, they expect people to examine the evidence.

...the fossil record is incomplete. is that the one you are talking about?

Of course it is: do you expect every living creature that ever was to be preserved as a fossil, complete with dogtags around the neck saying where to find its parents? What we do see in the fossil record is what evolutionary theory expects to find; not what anyone would have expected from Biblical literalism.

Your goldfish theory is just a theory Bob.

You are mistaken. The origin of the goldfish is thoroughly documented: a Chinese fisher found a bright-red carp among his catch (Chinese carp are black) and saved it in a pail as a gift to the local lord (who rewarded him handsomely). The lord bred the fish in his carp pools, and segregated out all the colored ones which appeared. After a few generations, the colors started shifting unstably, settling on the golden color now seen. This is a classic example of speciation by "punctuated equilibrium."
The dog, on the other hand, is a classic example of speciation by "gradual drift". Many breeds of dog are still not separated from the wolf enough that there is any barrier to interbreeding (Siberian huskies interbreed with wolf routinely) while others are (good luck interbreeding a Chihuahua with a wolf). The process has been going on for thousands of years, and will take many thousands more before "dog" and "wolf" are completely separate.

i am an american & i am a christian, you got that part right. spreading falsehoods> i dont think so.

You don't know anything about the subject, and don't care to learn. You don't have to learn if you don't want to, but if you spread uninformed falsehoods, you will be called on it.

thanks for jabbing at american christians & trying to make us look stupid...

I don't have to "try" to make you look stupid.

that is exactly why i do not discuss it with certain individuals.

Yes, you want to spread your nonsense, and have no-one respond. I don't play that game.

[wil]

You don't know anything about the subject, and don't care to learn... thanks for jabbing at american christians & trying to make us look stupid...I don't have to "try" to make you look stupid.

I just wondered in here recently, thought it appeared a good place to contemplate, to have lively discussion. However we should attempt to behave as adults, imho.

And I didn't know we were discussing Chritianity per se.

I did make a mistake there...all organized religion has shown a decline in Europe, and the US is following...could that be due just to evolution..hmmm it is evolution.

But as far as creation v. evolution...it is pretty much just Genesis that is in the debate US and Europe, and I am ruefully uninformed as to what debates are going on in China or India and what is being taught or not taught in schools.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

I just wondered in here recently, thought it appeared a good place to contemplate, to have lively discussion. However we should attempt to behave as adults, imho. I did make a mistake there...all organized religion has shown a decline in Europe, and the US is following...could that be due just to evolution..hmmm it is evolution.

But as far as creation v. evolution...it is pretty much just Genesis that is in the debate US and Europe, and I am ruefully uninformed as to what debates are going on in China or India and what is being taught or not taught in schools.

You erred again I'm afraid, pertaining to organized religion showing decline in the US. In fact it has risen by 18% in the last ten years, from 60% believing and following a religious tract, to 78%. In addition, a great many scientists and scholars have revised their views on religion, and have joined in one form or another. Actually the number as at about 66%, given the various sciences involved. 75% of our Doctors claim belief in God, and the afterlife. Social sciences tend to be higher than the natural sciences, however the natural scienes are 59-70%, which is pretty high for such learned scholars...

v/r

Q

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You erred again I'm afraid, pertaining to organized religion showing decline in the US. In fact it has risen by 18% in the last ten years, from 60% believing and following a religious tract, to 78%. In addition, a great many scientists and scholars have revised their views on religion, and have joined in one form or another. Actually the number as at about 66%, given the various sciences involved. 75% of our Doctors claim belief in God, and the afterlife. Social sciences tend to be higher than the natural sciences, however the natural scienes are 59-70%, which is pretty high for such learned scholars...

v/r

Q

I also recall a recent poll about this, but I remember the numbers for scientists in the natural sciences to be lower than you give, and among biologists it is lowest of all. But, as one Christian who also happens to be a biologist, I can attest that there are many biologists who are faithful Christians, Muslims, Baha'is and Jews, all of whom consider the OT/Pentatuech as sacred. We need to have a conference or something.

lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I also recall a recent poll about this, but I remember the numbers for scientists in the natural sciences to be lower than you give, and among biologists it is lowest of all. But, as one Christian who also happens to be a biologist, I can attest that there are many biologists who are faithful Christians, Muslims, Baha'is and Jews, all of whom consider the OT/Pentatuech as sacred. We need to have a conference or something.

lunamoth

Correct, according to the surveys 41% of Biologists did not believe in God or an afterlife. That leaves 59%. Is that what you saw? I was pointing out the plus or minus 6%, which gives the 59-70% ratio. Forgive me if I was out of line.

As an engineer who specializes in metalurgy, I have some idea of physics, at a micro level. And as an engineer who specializes in thermodynamics, I have some idea of energy/matter...matter/energy transference.

I don't call myself a "scientist", but I don't call myself stupid either (not trouncing you dear Luna).

My point is I understand that there is something beyond us all. I've seen it, (I've watched the burning of the sun, less than 6 inches from my eyes). I've controlled the heat of the sun (at it's surface), right here on earth. That's right, controlled the heat of the sun, right here, right now, on earth. In the heart of a ship. It's called a welding machine.

I've watched aluminum and steel meld together (yep, can be done and is done on a regular basis).

As soon as we say it is impossible...it becomes possible.

Now scientists are saying, maybe God is possible. Instead of looking for ways to disprove God...now they are starting to look for God's signature...

just a thought

v/r

Q

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Correct, according to the surveys 41% of Biologists did not believe in God or an afterlife. That leaves 59%. Is that what you saw? I was pointing out the plus or minus 6%, which gives the 59-70% ratio. Forgive me if I was out of line.

As an engineer who specializes in metalurgy, I have some idea of physics, at a micro level. And as an engineer who specializes in thermodynamics, I have some idea of energy/matter...matter/energy transference.

I don't call myself a "scientist", but I don't call myself stupid either (not trouncing you dear Luna).

My point is I understand that there is something beyond us all. I've seen it, (I've watched the burning of the sun, less than 6 inches from my eyes). I've controlled the heat of the sun (at it's surface), right here on earth. That's right, controlled the heat of the sun, right here, right now, on earth. In the heart of a ship. It's called a welding machine.

I've watched aluminum and steel meld together (yep, can be done and is done on a regular basis).

As soon as we say it is impossible...it becomes possible.

Now scientists are saying, maybe God is possible. Instead of looking for ways to disprove God...now they are starting to look for God's signature...

just a thought

v/r

Q

Still not sure it's the same poll, but I can't remember where I saw it. I do seem to recall that the mainstream Christian denominations (including Roman Catholic), which generally do not see a conflict between faith and the ToE, are declining while the more conservative/evangelical/charismatic churches (and the non-denoms) are increasing. So, Christianity may be growing but the face of Christianity is changing.

In my view it is not the scientist's objective to prove or disprove God, although there are certainly some who make an agenda of saying there's no need for a Diety to explain the universe and others who try to fit their observations into literal biblical interpretations. But I'm with you totally on seeing God's signature in all His creation, whether written with stars, electrons or DNA. For me the benefit of being a scientist is getting to admire certain bits of His handiwork up close.

(Not feeling trounced upon at all )

lunamoth

[wil]

You erred again I'm afraid, pertaining to organized religion showing decline in the US.

What people answer in polls vs. what they actually do are notoriously to different things.

We've had poll after poll about what people consume regarding junk food v. fruits and vegetables...however the research at the street (garbage cans) and in landfills bears out they have a tendency to sway from the truth.

I think there is a difference also between being spiritual and being religious. Your polls indicate people have an increased religious/spirtual bent. But those attending church, temple, mosque...services of any kind on a regular basis is in decline, as is the membership roles in organized religion.

Anecdotaly I do see, or appear to see an increase in the mega churches, somehow analagous in my mind similar to the loss of the family farm and growth of the corporate farms....

namaste,

[bob x]

I do seem to recall that the mainstream Christian denominations (including Roman Catholic), which generally do not see a conflict between faith and the ToE, are declining while the more conservative/evangelical/charismatic churches (and the non-denoms) are increasing. So, Christianity may be growing but the face of Christianity is changing.

The kind of Christianity which is growing in the United States is the kind which refuses to acknowledge any scientific results at all, if it conflicts with the world-view of the original authors of the scriptures thousands of years ago. I regard the spread of this anti-scientific form of religion as a grave disaster.

[Vajradhara]

Project Steve:


http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/art..._2_16_2003.asp



metta,

~v

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by bob x

The kind of Christianity which is growing in the United States is the kind which refuses to acknowledge any scientific results at all, if it conflicts with the world-view of the original authors of the scriptures thousands of years ago. I regard the spread of this anti-scientific form of religion as a grave disaster.

I fear you could be right about that Bobx, but I still do not appreciate you painting American Christians as stupid.

peace,
lunamoth

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I fear you could be right about that Bobx, but I still do not appreciate you painting American Christians as stupid.

I agree. Alot of people just don't give this thing much thought, so when posed the question, if one must take sides most Christians will side with the bible. Creation and Evolution doesn't have a simple answer, only 2+2 does. Even I, who believe that Creation and Evolution go hand in hand, would give an indepth explanation of Creation to a bible study class instead of giving an indepth explanation of Evolution and how it relates to Creation.

[wil]

Rise above it....how many times must you forgive?

Well if christians, 7x70 eh?

Forgivness is such a cool concept, without it you continue to bring up the past, allow your blood to boil, allow someone else to control your thoughts...

Wayne Dyer says when you squeeze an orange you get orange juice.

Well what is inside of someone that spurs them to spit out something has no more to do with you than what is in an orange...let it go.

I'm only reminding because I need to be reminded...

dang mirror....gotta get the log out!

namaste,

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by bob x

The kind of Christianity which is growing in the United States is the kind which refuses to acknowledge any scientific results at all, if it conflicts with the world-view of the original authors of the scriptures thousands of years ago. I regard the spread of this anti-scientific form of religion as a grave disaster.

I would like to see the statistical facts you base the presumption on.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

What people answer in polls vs. what they actually do are notoriously to different things.

We've had poll after poll about what people consume regarding junk food v. fruits and vegetables...however the research at the street (garbage cans) and in landfills bears out they have a tendency to sway from the truth.

I think there is a difference also between being spiritual and being religious. Your polls indicate people have an increased religious/spirtual bent. But those attending church, temple, mosque...services of any kind on a regular basis is in decline, as is the membership roles in organized religion.

Anecdotaly I do see, or appear to see an increase in the mega churches, somehow analagous in my mind similar to the loss of the family farm and growth of the corporate farms....

namaste,

Going to church does not make one religious or spiritual. What one thinks and how their life is conducted day to day is a better barometer for such matters.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

I agree. Alot of people just don't give this thing much thought, so when posed the question, if one must take sides most Christians will side with the bible. Creation and Evolution doesn't have a simple answer, only 2+2 does. Even I, who believe that Creation and Evolution go hand in hand, would give an indepth explanation of Creation to a bible study class instead of giving an indepth explanation of Evolution and how it relates to Creation.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with teaching both. The reason is that they are both theories based on circumstantial evidence (nothing concrete), not absolute fact. The only way to accept either/or theory is mostly based on faith. None of us were there to observe actual events as they took place, so our "knowledge" comes from third party heresay. In US courts for example, heresay is not admissible as evidence to convict.

The most open minded of people will not dismiss one and embrace the other. They will look at both, and ask lots of questions, make comparrisons, reflect on what is known.

v/r

Q