Court case against Christianity

[wizanda]

So do you mean for me to go over every point in question and post the relevant scriptures, to back up each one?

If so I can, yet it will be a lot to read.

I find it far easier to answer people’s questions, as you can imagine almost half the Bible is involved.

By the way are you a Christian Brian?



Peace N love B with U

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by wizanda

[color=black]















[size=3]The reason I do this is not through lack of knowledge, yet I know Yeshua personally. Yes he did die and was raised, he also does sit at the top right hand corner of God; which I have seen my self.

The reason I am against the books in question, is they are Anti-Christ’s teachings and cause much conflict between religions worldwide.

This that I am now discussing on here is all foretold by other prophets in the Bible. The Bible as whole makes far more sense, when these points are realised as many prophecies are then fulfilled. Especially concerning the snare spoken of in Isaiah.

Peace N love B with U

so we agree on that part of Jesus & Calvary. But you do realize that Jesus was rejected when he made his claims- which would make the ones who crucified him & rejected his authority, the anti Christ.

the other books of the NT do not reject Jesus, i see where they expound on Jesus as the Christ, our hope in glory.
any way, i want to take a break form this & all i ask, is before you throw them all in the garbage, just leave an open mind to the possibility in the future that something might click, that these other writings are for Christ & not against him. Paul & John were not against Christ & there is nothing in those books which indicate that to me... & I am glad to hear that you are not against him.

Peace & Love to you also

[At_the_Wellspring]

hi Wizanda and bandit and saltmeister


Don't have the time, expertise or resources to make too much claim on the specifity/ interpretation of the differences between Paul and Christ's teachings. Its interesting though, i've never come across this particular argument.

Just a couple of comments though... while there may be differences in the teachings/ words used/ interpretations (I won't claim they do or don't exist either way), I would say it is pretty strong to claim that Paul's teachings are the work of the anti-Christ, as i have found much, love, meaning and spiritual guidance within his letters.

To me the details of the exact wording of each phrase taken in isolation is not important, but I guess that has to do with my understanding in the bible and its writings, while revealing spiritual truths, were also written for their time. But anyway that is another discussion altogether.

But I wonder also, whether the differences between the teachings is truly the root cause of divisions in denomination within the church? Without Pauls teachings included in the bible would the church really have greater unity? i don't think so. I think the human part of ourselves and our tribal history shows that we need to define ourselves as different, and while uniqueness is essential, it can lead to defensiveness of land, religion and beliefs. I would say that even without Paul, there would still have been a multitude of reasons and justifications to split one group from another. I believe it is not necessarily a negative thing, as different people have different understandings, needs and forms of expression and so different, churches and congregations suit different people to some extent. So I think different denominations would have sprung up anyway. Because of our need for individuality and difference this is inevitable.

The danger I see is when we don't recognise and nourish our commonality or recognise the validity of difference.

But anyway, that is also a different topic, and I know that the point is to have discussion and debate which requires difference not just commonality.

And just one last little thing, I'm sorry to be picky Wizanda, and i know you have the best of intentions, and I understand that the topic is huge, but saying that you would prefer to just answer questions, to me implies that you have all the answers to teach others, when really the point of CR is to recognise the validity and intelligence of all sides of the argument, and thus debate from an equal stand-point, 'enlightening eachother'.

Well, thats my little bit...

Peace, love and unity

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by wizanda

So do you mean for me to go over every point in question and post the relevant scriptures, to back up each one?

It's more that we have three pages on this thread, yet I have difficulty seeing a structured argument anyone can really respond to. It's simply a statement of opinion with little actual development for discussion, and that's a shame.

Originally Posted by wizanda

If so I can, yet it will be a lot to read.

That's the problem - you came in banging a drum that you don't like Paul, made multiple posts about that - but you didn't stop to really rationalise your argument in a clear and succinct matter.

From an observer point of view, it makes this thread seem rather limp at doing anything, let alone setting up a court case.

Originally Posted by wizanda

By the way are you a Christian Brian?

I'm outside of everybody's box.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by At_the_Wellspring

hi Wizanda and bandit and saltmeister


The danger I see is when we don't recognise and nourish our commonality or recognise the validity of difference.
Peace, love and unity

hi At_the_Wellspring.

i enjoyed you post on this a lot. Like we agree 100% so i guess we have a lot in common to build a nice bridge of peace.

Paul and Christ's teachings. Its interesting though, i've never come across this particular argument.

you will see this pop up at least once a month around here. there are two different arguments out now. one of them is ancient & goes back to the first century. they both go after Paul first then snake through the other books.

i have just come across a new one with a different approach recently. i think i have located the source & it is only about 2 years old.
THIS particular 'case' is a bit different but i think it may be coming from the same recent doctrine against the bible I have seen elsewhere.

oh well. no biggie.

Welcome to the club & hope you will like it around here.
Love & Unity to you also.

[Curios Mike]

Maybe you should change the name to court case against Paul and John if you are A Christian. But I can understand some of Bandits Sarcasm, and shots at you.... Becuase your Title itself is Anti-Christ. Though I agree Alot if not most of Christianity is a bit Phariseeic, but its becuase they do not understand much of what Paul wrote also. Anyways As Bandit has mentioned before their is several different arguments about Paul as well as other... I guess if you can disprove one book out of the Bible then the theory is you can disprove Christianity..... Or at least convert a few away from it. This sort of thing is on the increase and will increase.

Anyways as Brian has stated I have to agree..... dont really know your argument. Except that your opinion is that Pual, John, and Jesus disagree... But I fail to see where. And it is impossible to proev they actually do agree if you cannot use their own words.

Example: If Jesus says White is Black and Paul also teaches this, and adds explanation to it, but I'm not allowed to show this, then what is the point of the arguement?

Even when Jesus was on Trail before Pilot and Herod they gave him a chance to voice... Why not Paul or John.... What do you think the Pharisees wanted to do.... Shut up Christ, and or his disciples......



p.s.
sorry its been so long.....gotta pay the bills

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by At_the_Wellspring

Don't have the time, expertise or resources to make too much claim on the specifity/ interpretation of the differences between Paul and Christ's teachings. Its interesting though, i've never come across this particular argument.

Welcome to the thread, Wellspring. It's been nice reading your comments on this discussion.

I'm no expert myself, but I don't think I need to be. The Bible wasn't written for any elitist group of human beings. It's a common view that you need to be "specially trained," "specially educated" or "specially ordained" (as in a priest) to be a person qualified to understand the Bible but I think that's "absolute rubbish."

I'm not saying that anyone can pick up a Bible and understand it, but I think it's important to take a step back first and make sure you know what the Bible's real purpose is. The people most qualified to tell you what the Bible says are the people who correctly answer this question before going on to study the Bible -- not the elitist Bible scholars who think they're know-alls.

Originally Posted by At_the_Wellspring

But I wonder also, whether the differences between the teachings is truly the root cause of divisions in denomination within the church? Without Pauls teachings included in the bible would the church really have greater unity?

Following on from what I said on the Bible's purpose, I believe the view we should all have when we read the Bible is to understand that it is to explain the secret of God, His Word and His Kingdom.

I've spent the past year exploring web sites on religion and dialogue with Catholics, Mormons and Muslims. As a result, I've had quite a bit of experience on the hottest topics of Christianity.

There have been so many arguments on the Origin of Sin, the Trinity and rules like whether abortion, sex before marriage, homosexuality or masturbation are right or wrong. It seems that many "church leaders" have been deluded enough to think that the Bible's purpose was to give us rules to follow -- or that the Bible was a book of dogma, doctrine and ideology.

Despite all the debates, we never really discover or understand the most important thing of all -- God, His Word and His Kingdom. I think the purpose of the Bible is to do exactly that -- to explain the secret of God and His Kingdom.

God is definitely a secret to all or at least most of us. Some of us know Him, some do not. Some of us know the secret about Him and His Kingdom. The others do not. The most tragic thing that has happened is that with all these arguments on Original Sin, Trinity, abortion, sex, masturbation is that we have not discovered this Secret -- the Secret that existed from the beginning, before anything was even created at all.

Because life as a Christian is a spiritual journey to this God and His secret Kingdom, if we go off on a tangent with these arguments on Original Sin, Trinity, etc., we ultimately lead ourselves on a path to darkness and destruction of which the apostles warned us against!!!

The point is, if we have to answer the questions on abortion, sex, masturbation, etc., we are saying that society is more important than God rather than the other way round. It ultimately means we don't have faith that God, the most powerful Being in the universe, could give us what we need to live lives of peace and happiness.

And so . . . we create our own rules, dogma and ideology as if that was God's job!!!!

A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. 1 Peter 2:8

Isn't it true that a lot of people have stumbled over the Gospel?

Of course, an anti-Christian argument may be that the Christian Gospel is "responsible" for the conflicts, violence and factions in this world, but I don't think the Christian Gospel should be put on trial like that.

The Christian Gospel may seem to be "a threat" to "our world" because of all these divisions, but is this world really that important at all? If God wants to rescue us from this world, He wouldn't be the least bit concerned about the damage He causes to this world because this world won't last forever. Our existence here is temporal. We seem to think that it's God's responsibility to preserve the world we have created.

[At_the_Wellspring]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Welcome to the thread, Wellspring. It's been nice reading your comments on this discussion.

Thanks Saltmeister

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I'm no expert myself, but I don't think I need to be. The Bible wasn't written for any elitist group of human beings. It's a common view that you need to be "specially trained," "specially educated" or "specially ordained" (as in a priest) to be a person qualified to understand the Bible but I think that's "absolute rubbish."

I do agree, there shouldn't be a heirachy or feeling of ineptitude when it comes to understanding the message. But at the same time, the most stimulating sermons that I have heard and learnt from were from a Pastor who was very well researched in the history and context of each bible passage that he looked into and taught on. From the context and situations of the writings (such as Pauls letters) he could from that stand-point explain how it is relevant to us today. I found that depth of knowledge stimulating rather than some other speakers who I feel took the words at face-value understanding, picking and choosing different single verses to emphasise a point or claim they had made.

So I guess the 'expertise' is just in understanding that behind the words there is also a history and context in which it was written and from which we can learn. Knowing there is a depth behind the words on the page. And then also I guess, the fact that the Pastor I refer to seemed to understand the foundation of the message - which in the end is all about love - loving God and loving others.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

There have been so many arguments on the Origin of Sin, the Trinity and rules like whether abortion, sex before marriage, homosexuality or masturbation are right or wrong. It seems that many "church leaders" have been deluded enough to think that the Bible's purpose was to give us rules to follow -- or that the Bible was a book of dogma, doctrine and ideology.

Despite all the debates, we never really discover or understand the most important thing of all -- God, His Word and His Kingdom. I think the purpose of the Bible is to do exactly that -- to explain the secret of God and His Kingdom.

I would agree - personally i don't get too tripped up on the apparent rules and regulations. I think ultimately the message of the gospels is love. And, for me, its pretty much as simple as that. And I would definitely say that many people have 'stumbled across' the bible and have been incredibly enlightened by it and have found God's love and peace through it for themselves. So it can't be labelled as the root cause of all problems in the world. The problem is the human aspect that is involved, not the God aspect (the Secret, as you say). So in some ways I would still say that the bible has, in some ways, 'tripped people up'. The bible is a collection of words which contain a secret, though they are still simple, rudimentary words that are trying to explain something beyond the scope of words. The writers were trying to document or express the incredible acts of love, mercy and forgiveness of Christ (its difficult enough to write a good novel or biography about an 'ordinary citizen' - imagine trying to express such powerful emotions in words..!) And, while an incredible mystery lies within it, it is easier for us to simply take the words, pick them apart, and construe them into the rules we want to make, or in order for us to have some form of control or superiority over others.

So because of centuries of a history of this, it does appear in some ways that it has 'tripped us up'. When prositution was legalised here a couple of years ago, the Government wasn't necessarily advocating it as a proffession, but they were trying to do something that would be best for those in the industry - for their safety and protection. Whether legalising it is the answer or not doesn't necessarily matter. Same thing with the bill allowing 'civil union' of gay and lesbian couples - it was a matter of human rights rather than moral agreement. Whereas the (predominant) Christian response to that was so caught up in the fact that both those acts is morally wrong that the 'rule' comes to be more important than the welfare or protection of the individual.

Anyway, I guess all I'm saying after all of that is that I find it sad that the general impression of the bible and its followers seems to be one of judgement and restriction rather than love and acceptance.

Can you imagine if just one person loved as powerfully as Jesus, and the next person was compelled to love equally as powerfully and so on and so forth - the love would spread the globe like wild-fire! Just goes to show there is a human element in all of us which never quite allows us to reach such perfection...

[wizanda]

Originally Posted by At_the_Wellspring

Can you imagine if just one person loved as powerfully as Jesus, and the next person was compelled to love equally as powerfully and so on and so forth - the love would spread the globe like wild-fire! Just goes to show there is a human element in all of us which never quite allows us to reach such perfection...

This is my point in all of this, that basically our history as a human race was changed.



Let me put it my way of understanding this now (not that everyone will agree).



Christ came along and took the worship of God back into nature; he was against church rule and policies. Christ was not against the Bible or the basic commandments given by God, yet the extra rules that had been made by man to put people into fear and under control. After his death there was 3000 people joining the disciples, they followed giving up of their wealth and living as a community (Oneness, One us). This is what Christ taught and this would have continued to spread, as an open community.



The Pharisees didn’t want this, as before they had control over the people via religion. This is one of the reasons they had him sentenced to death.

Paul was a member of the Pharisees under the Pharisee/Jewish high council which John was a member of. To end this following Paul had people dragged out of their homes and stoned to death in public places, as to scare people into not following the teachings of Christ (as told in Acts). He then said told people he had changed and came back a new man, yet in actual fact he reinstated Church policies of tithes and offerings. The amount of contradictions in his teachings compared to Christ, is the reason I say he was Anti-Christ’s teachings. As today most people say Christ said this, when in actual fact if they checked it up; they are in fact quoting Paul as if he was Christ. Someone mentioned that he reiterated the teachings of Christ and explained them; he did yet changed the whole meaning back into church control.



The next part to this whole picture is the fact that within the so called gospel of John, there are a number of points that only a member of the Jewish high council/Pharisees would have known. Now to any follower of Judaism, after hearing that Christ said the things contained in John no Jewish person would follow him. As there is a number of points that would imply that Christ was Anti-Judaic. Which in fact he was not when compared with the other gospels. In other words the Gospel of John is made up, as in my original posts; the destroying of the temple in quoted in John, is a lie. As in both Matthew and Mark we are told that the Pharisees made this up to discredit him. People say well it says then the disciples knew he meant his body, yet Matthew and Mark were disciples and they say it is a lie. This then puts the whole gospel of John into question about is authenticity. Also that it contains points that contradict Christ own words in the other gospels, just adds to this of really putting the authenticity of the gospel of John into question. Then the most disturbing thing is that a number of issues are against God’s principles discussed in the Tanach (Old Testament). So even till this day most Jewish will still not accept Christ, from what is contained in the book of John; as if Christ said it.



So indeed the Pharisees regained control of the people by using Christ’s authority to make it appear as if he said he was God.

On the whole issue of comparative religions I have read many of them, the only points that don’t tally and make it that they can be unified is what is contained by both of these authors. If both of these authors are Pharisees Christ in Matthew 23 strictly warns against following them. Most of the principle discussed in the books of John and Paul fulfil this.

This is why this thread is named a court case against Christianity, as most of the teaching stem from these books in question.

Mat 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of Heaven against men. For you neither go in, nor do you allow those entering to go in.

Their teachings are Anti-Oneness, and in fact do a good job of causing division amongst all religions, even Christianity it self with its many denominations.

Mat 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you compass sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Paul and John both Pharisees went preaching their own version of Christ, not preaching what he said or the gospel. Instead preaching Christ as a sacrifice and people have an inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, which Christ said they would do in the parable of the vine dresser, they would kill the son to steal the inheritance. The only begotten son of God came from John. Which is why Muslims have it written that God doesn’t beget; everything is God’s to begin with.

Mat 23:25-28 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of extortion and excess. (26) Blind Pharisee! First cleanse the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of them may be clean also. (27) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which indeed appear beautiful outside, but inside they are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. (28) Even so you also appear righteous to men outwardly, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

John and Paul established that when you are washed in the blood of Christ you are free of sin. This is exactly what he meant, a sacrifice and washing the outside is merely for show. It is cleaning the soul and changing the ways that is important. Again he asked for mercy and not sacrifice, which is him quoting from the Old Testament, that the knowledge of God is more important then sacrifices.

Mat 23:29-32 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets, and decorate the tombs of the righteous, (30) and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. (31) Therefore you are witnesses to yourselves, that you are the sons of those who killed the prophets; (32) and you fill up the measure of your fathers.

Instead of them establishing love and unity as Christ did, they have caused everyone to build churches with a dead man hang on a cross to be worshiped. To me knowing Yeshua personally, it sends shivers through me and makes me feel sick; that they still have him hanging there, as if it is a good thing.

Mat 23:14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and pray at length as a pretence. Therefore you shall receive the greater condemnation.

The fact that most Christian churches have long prayers shows that the belief system stems from the Pharisees. Not Yeshua as he told people to pray privately, in their rooms.



This entire subject is far easier to see from a comparative religion perspective as many principles said by Christ tally with Lao-Tzu, Buddha and many other religions. What does not tally, is the books of the Pharisees i.e. John and Paul and this is a large reason why we have religious debates going on and not coming to any resolution.



Peace N love B with U

[At_the_Wellspring]

Hi Wizanda

Thanks for your reply... just a couple of things briefly...

Firstly what i had written (that you quoted) about what if everyone was able to love as powerfully as Jesus, I was saying that in the context of understanding that this is not possible, as to fully love as powerfully as him, we would have to have as full an understanding of life, God and love as he did.

In other words, there is always going to be a break-down somewhere down the line, or gradually over time. Kind of like Chinese whispers.

Thats where I would argue that even without Paul in the picture at all, other humans in history would have influenced the course of Christianity. Its part of human nature that people turn to greed and power, so I have no doubt that this would have happened anyway. That where i don't think you can single out Paul as the root cause of the fact that we have long prayers or that we act in ways much like the Pharisees. If we act like the Pharisees, in my view, its because the Pharisees were human just as we are human and so we can also be hypocritical as they were and show characteristics like they did. They were by no means a foreign species and therefore so different from ourselves.

Any historical writing is going to be interpreted and picked apart by different people for both good and bad intentions, no matter how pure (in truth or or just intention) the words/ teachings originally were.

I see our job is to find the essence of truth within the scriptures, but I don't see that as meaning it is our job to edit the bible, such as to take out Pauls/ Johns writings. What if we edited out genesis because actually the world is much older than that and actually its not scientifically reasonable to believe the creation story as fact... or what if we edited out leviticus because its full of rules that are no longer relevant to this day and age and they are illegal and not politically correct and offensive... or what if we edited out revelations because its a book that we can't take literally word for word..

We could probably find a reason to edit out much of the bible, but it isn't our job to do that, it is our job to find the truth within it. If the court case against Christianity is highlighting the fact that Christians do sometimes/ often show tendencies of being not so different than the Pharisees, then fine, maybe we can recognise where we have become hipocritical, which parts of our faith we do for 'show', which part of the scripture we are using to advance our own end etc.

Its fine for us to objectively look at ourselves and how we practise our faith, but I don't see the point in pinning down the reason why we have become like this down to two single people in history - Paul and John. Paul and John, I would say are the reason many have turned to Christianity in the first place, and many have found meaning, love, peace, understanding within the texts. People have found truth within it, despite the fact that perhaps the teachings are not 100% in line with Jesus' teachings (according to one interpretation).

Also, I would've thought that the belief that Paul, one of the worst of the worst, was able to change his life, to turn around and to become a follower in a faith he attacked so strongly, was a powerful message about how anyone can change, anyone can come to believe. I would say it is a huge loss to Christianity to lose faith that Paul truly did change.

Anyway, just some thoughts..

[wizanda]

Thankz, for your reply also, I like your perspective.



I do hear where you are coming from and yes, I do see that human nature is also involved.

The thing is though, according to the contradictions, they re-wrote Christianity and so stopped people getting in to heaven. Also many people, yet not all stop at being under Christ, yet not following his example. Imagine if people after hearing that through a man’s faith in God he could walk on water, heal the sick, and move mountains, as Christ did. He also said we can do more then he did, through faith!

If you hear an inspiring story doesn’t it inspire you to do more? Just as an example ‘when you watched Rocky and he ran up the stairs with the music, don’t you want to train also?

Well this is has been stopped in its tracks, imagine if someone super glued the stairs so Rocky got stuck half way up? Would it spoil it for you?

Where as Christ said he was a prophet and said what he achieved was attainable by us.

Instead Paul was a murdering liar to begin with and then he changed, to someone who preached how it was good that a man was murdered, so we could be covered in his blood?

Also him and John turning Christ into God, means we can’t reach as Christ said we could to be perfect as our father is in heaven; and also to achieve more then Christ had.



Peace N love B with U

[At_the_Wellspring]

Hi again Wizanda
I have to say I also agree with some of what you are saying, like there could definitely be more emphasis on what we can do by faith, rather than the fact that Christs perfection is impossible to achieve, (therefore lets not bother...). Its definitely more empowering to have the knowledge that we have the potential to do as he did.

I guess with everything there always has to be some kind of paradox - we are capable of the amazing and great things Jesus did, but his ability to do those things was in part due to his complete humility. The ultimate combo of power with humility... strive to have that power and our egos might get in the way, it might become more about me and my ability to heal than the desire simply to heal another who is suffering. On the other hand, if we strive to be humble, to see ourselves as lowly, far below God, far from being as godly as Jesus, then thats not exactly empowering, and we may disregard the fact that we could possibly have those powers.

In all religious thought/ theory (as I know it anyway) there seem to be these paradoxes and dualities that are hard for us to get our heads around. So over different times and in different interpretations there may often be emphasis on one more than another.

And I guess my point of view may differ, or I may not feel the urgency in 'convicting' Paul, because I don't believe in a strong division of heaven/ hell, as you described 'getting in to heaven'. I believe people have been lead one way or another, to or away from ultimate truth all throughout history, and then on top of that, because we are not just all lemmings following eachother around the place, we then as individuals make some kind of choice as to our understanding of anothers message/ teachings and our own understanding of life. For this reason I personally have difficulty in being able to separate such complexity into heaven or hell. But again, that is another whole topic.

Just as an example, if there happens to be a young German who dislikes asians. He doesn't have a particular foundation for this dislike, but he believes them to be (just say) unintelligent (i hope I'm not offending anyone here...). Clearly he has been mislead somehow, he is missing some part of reality/ truth.

We could say that it is completely and ultimately the fault of Hitler, who instilled racism in a nation single-handedly. Its all his fault. Or we could say well, actually he has been influenced by his grandparents and parents who had similar beliefs. So, he has been 'bred' or 'brought up' this way. But what about the fact that he is an intelligent human being and also able to make judgement for himself?

And anyway, if Hitler hadn't existed at all, hadn't had any effect on history, would this person still be racist? Would no german at all be racist? While it would've made a huge impact on History if Hitler hadn't existed, it wouldn't necessarily mean that there would have been no racism of any type or scale in any German's mind. Other historical events, as well as personal experiences of this German, as well as the simple fact that we as humans have the characteristic of needing to protect ourselves and our kind (tribal tendencies), would have an influence, probably meaning that racism would still exist.

Hitler could have been the 'glue' that stuck down Germany's feet and stopped it in its tracks for a while, but not forever. A German today is influenced by so much more that one person in history. Just as Christians are influenced by Jesus', the bible and its writers, there is far more complexity to it, influencing our interpretation of words on a page.

Everyone who has a bible can read the passage about Jesus saying we can do things as amazing as he did. We might place emphasis on this point and feel completely inspired and empowered, walking side-by-side with Christ. We may also choose to humble ourselves before God. And humility before God, realising our inadequacies and striving to change them or learning to accept them and work with them can be a totally empowering experience. Different strokes for different folks I guess.


Peace be with you too

[wizanda]

Namaste,



I like the way that you have used Hitler as a reference, why did Hitler want to wipe out the Jews?

The Bible, and that he felt that they had killed Christ, so he would wipe them out, In fact the Bible was part of the reason he went mad.

What did people want to do with Hitler as he had caused all these problems? Try and get rid of him!

Do you see what I am aiming at?

Yes live is free choice and all people will choose a path, yet If people learn something new they are either inspired or taught to do something.

So we have Christ showing us this path, then the road splits as you have Paul’s ideology and John’s.

This is why there is so much division amongst even the Christian churches and there is a new denomination every year.

As you say things are passed down from generation to generation, if Paul hadn’t murdered so many followers of Christ and then established the Roman church; which later finished the job of murdering all traces of followers of Christ.

Imagine the world we could live in, look at all the wars and suffering caused due to the Bible. Most of the worlds cultures are invaded by Christians and told they must follow Christ and not God???

Then they fight back as their previous teachers taught oneness. Christ taught oneness as well as we see in the true gospels.

The Muslims fight with people of the Bible as in the Quran it says it shall be used as criterion (in which to judge by).

The Quran says that the bible has forgeries and was edited by the Jews (Pharisees).

Now this is my whole point I have read both, Mohammed says an angel told him and I believe this to be correct. As from reading the way Mohammed wrote and as he admits him self he was illiterate.

Now with just using the Bible alone I can prove what was edited and forged, if we fix this the world can go back to oneness (get rid of Hitler).

Do we leave Hitler to invade all the countries and take over or do we get rid of him and stop world war 3 before it happens?



Peace N love B with U

[At_the_Wellspring]

Originally Posted by wizanda

Imagine the world we could live in, look at all the wars and suffering caused due to the Bible. Most of the worlds cultures are invaded by Christians and told they must follow Christ and not God???...

Now with just using the Bible alone I can prove what was edited and forged, if we fix this the world can go back to oneness (get rid of Hitler).


Peace N love B with U

Hi Wizanda

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The bible has inspired many people to amazing things since it was written... social and civil and human rights movements, charities... etc etc

And we can't just fix history, fix the bible. It's all about interpretation. If you or whoever decides to 'fix' it now, you would be fixing it according to your own interpretation. So how are you any more 'right' than Paul?

The truth of Christianity, that in essence can be found within the bible has inspired thousands of people to live better lives... The bible did not 'cause' every horrible thing that has happened in 'Christian' history.

Anyone, who is human, who has 'human' characteristics of greed, power, control, can manipulate and use the bible to justify an evil act. It is not the bible itself causing the act, it is the human invovement and interpretation. In just the same way as today we see extremists using passages from the Qur'an to kill thousands of innocent people in suicide attacks. It is not the truth of the religion itself that is the problem, it is people's ability to twist words and apply their own meaning to them.

My view, so I guess we agree to disagree, I won't have time over the next few weeks to write any more.

Good chatting with you.
Peace.

[wizanda]

Ok I have been in-between house lately so; my work with publishing this has been on hold, even though the more constructive work of how to put it across, has always on my mind since I was 5 years old.
You asked me what difference between me and Paul, its isn’t me as such it is Christ and so clear, it is blatantly obvious to me after my time studying that Paul’s teachings are anti-Christ and clearly contradict.
Where for instances here is something I am going to post all over, see if you can spot the differences.

The Ultimate Biblical Question

There is a couple of scriptures clear to me, whilst I have gone through the bible that need putting in a order as almost a question of whether you can follow both?



Luke, physician – Friend of Yeshua
12:1-5 in the meantime, when there had gathered together an innumerable crowd of people, so as to trample on one another, He began to say to His disciples first, Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. (2) For there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed, nor anything hidden that shall not be known. (3) Therefore whatever you have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light. And that which you have spoken in the ear in secret rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops. (Letters and books of the New Testament) (4) And I say to you, my friends do not be afraid of those who kill the body (Paul), and after that have no more that they can do. (5) But I will warn you of whom you shall fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear Him.


Zechariah prophet – Messenger of God
11:3-17 there is a voice of the howling of the shepherds; for their glory is destroyed. There is a voice of the roaring of young lions; for the pride of Jordan is destroyed. (4) For so says Jehovah my God: Feed the flock of the slaughter, (5) those buying them kill them, and hold themselves not guilty. And those who sell them say, Blessed be Jehovah, for I am rich; and their shepherds do not pity them. (Jewish people and their teachers) (6) For I will never again pity the people of the land, says Jehovah; but lo, I will make the men come out, each one into his neighbour’s hand and into his king's hand. And they shall strike the land, and I will not deliver out of their hand. (7) And I fed the flock of slaughter, even the poor of the flock. And I took two staffs for myself; the one I called Kindness (grace), and the other I called Union (inheritance). And I fed the flock. (8) I also cut off three shepherds (Sadducees, Pharisees and Levites*) in one month; and my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also despised me. (9) And I said, I will not feed you; that which dies, let it die; and that which is to be cut off, let it be cut off. And those left, let them eat, each woman her neighbour’s flesh. (Fake communion) (10) And I took my staff Kindness (grace), and broke it apart, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. (11) And it was broken in that day; and so the poor of the flock who were watching me knew that it was the Word of Jehovah. (12) And I said to them, if it is good, give my price; and if not, let it go. So they weighed my price thirty pieces of silver. (Given to Judas) (13) And Jehovah said to me; Throw it to the potter, the magnificent price at which I was valued by them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of Jehovah (Potters field in the land of Israel). (14) Then I broke my other staff Union (Inheritance) apart, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah (Muslim) and Israel (Jewish and Christian). (15) And Jehovah said to me; Take to you yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. (Pharisees) (16) For lo, I will raise up a shepherd (Paul) in the land who will not care for those going to ruin, nor will he seek the young, nor will heal that which is broken, nor will he feed that which stands. But he shall eat the flesh of the fat and tear off their hoofs. (17) Woe to the worthless shepherd who abandons the flock! The sword shall be on his arm and on his right eye; his arm shall be completely dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.



Matthew Tax collector – Disciple of Yeshua
27:3-8 Then he who had betrayed Him, seeing that He was condemned, sorrowing, Judas returned the thirty pieces of silver again to the chief priests and elders, (4) saying, I have sinned, betraying innocent blood. And they said, what is that to us? You see to that. (5) And he threw the pieces of silver down in the temple and departed. And he went and hanged himself. (6) And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, it is not lawful to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. (7) And they took counsel and bought the potter's field with them, to bury strangers in. (8) therefore that field was called, The Field of Blood, to this day.




Matthew Tax collector – Disciple of Yeshua
Mat 23:13-35 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of Heaven against men. For you neither go in, nor do you allow those entering to go in. (14) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and pray at length as pretence. Therefore you shall receive the greater condemnation. (15) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you compass sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (16) Woe to you, blind guides, saying, Whoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor. (17) Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifies the gold? (18) And, Whoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the Sacrifice that is on it, he is a guilty! (19) Fools and blind! For which is greater, the sacrifice, or the altar that sanctifies the sacrifice? (20) Therefore whoever shall swear by the altar swears by it, and by all things on it. (21) And whoever shall swear by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. (22) And he who shall swear by Heaven swears by the throne of God, and by Him who sits on it. (23) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithes of mint and dill and cumin, and you have left undone the weightier matters of the Law, judgment, mercy, and faith. You ought to have done these and not to leave the other undone. (24) Blind guides who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! (25) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of extortion and excess.(26) Blind Pharisee! First cleanse the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of them may be clean also. (27) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which indeed appear beautiful outside, but inside they are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. (28) Even so you also appear righteous to men outwardly, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. (29) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets, and decorate the tombs of the righteous, (30) and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. (31) Therefore you are witnesses to yourselves, that you are the sons of those who killed the prophets; (32) and you fill up the measure of your fathers. (33) Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? (34) therefore, behold, I send prophets and wise men and scribes to you. And you will kill and crucify some of them. And some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city; (35) so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Berachiah, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.