Corpus Sacramentum

[Thomas]

It is a fact often overlooked that the Christ who rose from the tomb is not visibly the same as the Christ who was placed therein, by which I mean the Crucified Christ had been abused, beaten, whipped, crowned with thorns, nailed to a cross, and speared in the side ... in short, the body that went into the tomb was a wreck.

It is highly unlikely, therefore, that had there been no substantial change, that His closest followers would not have recognised Him.

But by all accounts the post-resurrection appearances were not of a broken and bloodied ruin of a man.

So we know that Jesus Christ was, in some fashion, reconstituted ... but we also know that He still bore certain signs, holes in His hands and feet, the wound in His side ...

... something to contemplate ...

Thomas

[Dondi]

Do you suppose that His Body was still healing at that point, (miraculously of course)? I mean He was only resurrected that morning and He appeared to the disciples later on in the day. Perhaps the wounds were still in process of binding up, albeit in acceleration (ala Wolverine in the X-Men movies, excuse my imagination). I know of at least one instance in Mark 8 where a blind man wasn't seeing clearly right away after Jesus place spittle in his eyes. He could only see men walking around like trees. Then Jesus touched his eyes with His hands and then the blind man could then see clearly.

Another question to ask is what was His physical state when He ascended? Surely He had to have a different kind of Body to ascend into the cold recesses of space. Or did He merely ascend into a different dimension, such as occupied by angels?

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Do you suppose that His Body was still healing at that point, (miraculously of course)?

No. What occurred is in the realm of the miraculous, the supernatural, not the natural.

Originally Posted by Dondi

Another question to ask is what was His physical state when He ascended? Surely He had to have a different kind of Body to ascend into the cold recesses of space. Or did He merely ascend into a different dimension, such as occupied by angels?

Yes, into the Divine from the physical.

'Ascend' is a mythopoeic term in this context — where is 'up' as far as heaven is concerned, as 'up' only makes sense because of gravity. So to 'ascend' is to use a metaphor that would be understood.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

No. What occurred is in the realm of the miraculous, the supernatural, not the natural.

And the blind man's healing wasn't miraculous?

Yes, into the Divine from the physical.

'Ascend' is a mythopoeic term in this context — where is 'up' as far as heaven is concerned, as 'up' only makes sense because of gravity. So to 'ascend' is to use a metaphor that would be understood.

So does that mean when "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (I Thess 4:17) that we will ascend into the Divine?

[AndrewX]

We also know that this has occurred to dozens of additional Saints, Gurus, Holy Men (and Women), Saviors, Avatars, and even Prophets ... throughout history, both before, and since, Christ Jesus.

We know that sometimes, the degree and type of transformation seems relatively more, or less, miraculous ... than the kind of reconstitution you're speaking of, Thomas - and sometimes the physical body is simply assumed - as in the Assumption of Mary (though of course, again, this is but one of countless examples).

I'm just amazed that people aren't aware of how almost universal this experience is - which occurred in the case of Christ Jesus. Not that suddenly, upon becoming aware of this fact, we can say, "oh, well now it doesn't seem so amazing," or "ahhh, so thaaaaat's how it works."

Rather, knowing that indeed, there are explanations for the "miracles" ... provided in suprisingly intelligible format, in esoteric science - just reassures me that God does indeed command His Universe according to a Divine ORDER ... and that (from the Heavenly point of view), there's truly "nothing new under the Sun."

Meanwhile, "there are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio ..."

[wil]

Originally Posted by Thomas

No. What occurred is in the realm of the miraculous, the supernatural, not the natural.

Yes, into the Divine from the physical.

Originally Posted by Dondi

And the blind man's healing wasn't miraculous?

Originally Posted by AndrewX

sometimes, the degree and type of transformation seems relatively more, or less, miraculous ... how almost universal this experience is - which occurred in the case of Christ Jesus. Not that suddenly, upon becoming aware of this fact, we can say, "oh, well now it doesn't seem so amazing," or "ahhh, so thaaaaat's how it works."

I believe that everything is a miracle and that there are no miracles. And that nothing is Supernatural...or it wouldn't have happened...ascension is as natural as you are divine.

Thanx be to our elder brother and wayshowers....all of them, it is but for us to realize what we have been given!

[lunamoth]

I think it may have been as Paul described, the seed transformed into the full potential of the wheat plant. In a way perhaps the physical body is consumed by the resurrection transformation. It might very well be the same for us at our resurrection.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think it may have been as Paul described, the seed transformed into the full potential of the wheat plant. In a way perhaps the physical body is consumed by the resurrection transformation. It might very well be the same for us at our resurrection.

And..."Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Cor 15:51,53

I think you're right! Maybe we'd still have our mind (or part of it) and some kind of recognizable feature so that others will know us.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Prober

And..."Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Cor 15:51,53

I think you're right! Maybe we'd still have our mind (or part of it) and some kind of recognizable feature so that others will know us.

When a seed sprouts the vast majority of its molecules are turned into energy and released into the atmosphere as carbon dioxide or otherwise shed from the growing plant. All of the molecules are subject to renewal and turnover. The one thing continuous between the seed and the plant is the pattern of the genetic code...information, not molecules.

[InLove]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

When a seed sprouts the vast majority of its molecules are turned into energy and released into the atmosphere as carbon dioxide or otherwise shed from the growing plant. All of the molecules are subject to renewal and turnover. The one thing continuous between the seed and the plant is the pattern of the genetic code...information, not molecules.

Conciousness? Maybe? (For us, I mean.) Obviously, I'm guessing, here. You may be saying something else entirely, but the thought, for me, is...

Awesome.

InPeace,
InLove

[Thomas]

It's worth noting that whilst Jesus walked the earth, the Second Person of the Trinity, the Logos of God, was not absent from the Trinity ... there was never a time when the Trinity was anything other than Trinity and, being beyond time and space, is subject to no alteration, diminution, separation ...

Thomas

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Thomas

It's worth noting that whilst Jesus walked the earth, the Second Person of the Trinity, the Logos of God, was not absent from the Trinity ... there was never a time when the Trinity was anything other than Trinity and, being beyond time and space, is subject to no alteration, diminution, separation ...

I agree. I have heard it expressed quite often that the Holy Spirit was not present until Pentecost. But the Holy Spirit was present in the very person of Jesus, and present in the Beginning and IS present all along, but is not always recognized or received. At least that's what I can understand so far.

InPeace,
InLove

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by InLove

Conciousness? Maybe? (For us, I mean.) Obviously, I'm guessing, here. You may be saying something else entirely, but the thought, for me, is...

Awesome.

InPeace,
InLove

Could be InLove...I was only extending Paul's metaphor, not proposing a concrete model...I don't know or have any certain ideas about it...just hope.

[Thomas]

Absolutely — The Trinity ever is ...

St Irenaeus said:
"the Spirit prepares man beforehand for the Son of God, the Son leads him to the Father and the Father gives him incorruptibility and eternal life" (Adv. Haer., IV, 20, 5).

Thomas

[InLove]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Could be InLove...I was only extending Paul's metaphor, not proposing a concrete model...I don't know or have any certain ideas about it...just hope.

I don’t know how well this thought fits into the conversation, but when you spoke of the seed and the plant, I thought of the flowers and herbs in my garden. It gives me great hope when I observe them. The perennials are renewed, each in their season. The flowers and leaves from the season before have been shed, but new stalks and blossoms spring forth from the original. Same plant, new body. And the annuals—the seed packets say they only last for a season, but they frequently drop their seeds upon passing, and these also bloom again—same essence, new body. I guess that’s what I was trying to say. And it gives me hope, too.

InPeace,
InLove