Conversion of the Soul

[Tao_Equus]

I think a more pertinant question would be " Is it possible to teach and not proseltyse?". I for one think not. Even having a booth at a state fair for example is making that effort. Again I would re-state that it seems a very illogical position to take.


Regards

TE

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I think a more pertinant question would be " Is it possible to teach and not proseltyse?". I for one think not. Even having a booth at a state fair for example is making that effort. Again I would re-state that it seems a very illogical position to take.


Regards

TE

I would draw this distinction. If you have a booth at the fair and go out of your way to give people literature who did not ask for it, you are proselytizing. If you sit at the booth and talk with people who talk with you first, then you are teaching - giving information to those who wish to have it.
From Merriam WSebster: "2 : to guide the studies of
3 : to impart the knowledge of <teach algebra>
4 a : to instruct by precept, example, or experience b : to make known and accepted <experience teaches us our limitations>"

"Consort with all men, O people of Baha, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding...."
(Compilations, The Individual and Teaching - Raising the Divine Call, p. 4)

So teaching offered is simply offered. It is not pressed with warnings of consequences, it is not salted with hopes of reward, it is just offered. Those who take up that teaching and find satisfaction in it are not guided by the teacher but by God, from a Baha`i point of view.

Anyone is free to accept or reject. What was is not free to do is accept or reject for someone else. So if what I offer is not to someone else's liking, I'm sorry, perhaps I phrased it wrong, I am capable of such error. This is another reason for offering the actual words of Baha`u'llah, or Jesus, or Muhammed, or Krshna or Buddha - to present the words of theachings in their original form so an individual can choose or not choose based on what he actually hears, not on what I think I heard.

Regards,
Scott

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

Hi Laurie,

One distinction that I've witnessed...

I worked at the Baha'i booth at the Iowa State Fair for 3 years. Our booth was right across from a Christian booth.

The first year i was there, the Christians would form a line in front of our booth, attempting to divert people away from us. Asking passers by if they had been saved yet. Handing a pamphlet to everyone that walked by.

The Baha'i's would just sit behind their table, talking to each other, smiling at passers by. And would only give out pamphlets if someone came up to the table and inquired.

The Christians mellowed out some by the 3rd year i was there, but there was still a distinctive difference in the approach. Several times they have tried to save me as well.

The most effective way of teaching is simply by living the life, and that entails quoting the writings, not because we are trying to one-up anyone, but rather because they become so engrained in us, as we strive to live the life.

Does that make any sense?

-Amy

Hi Amy, nice to *hear* your voice again.

I guess I would say that because there are more Christians than Baha'is there are also more obnoxious Christians than obnoxious Baha'is. Sorry that your booth was assaulted.

Certainly people have different ideas about what is good or effective evangelizing and I certainly would say that attacking your booth like that was not good behavior, Christian or otherwise. As I said above to Scott, evangelizing does not always look like pamphleting and paid missionary work. I think that just showing Christ's love to each other, living the life as Baha'is say, is the best evangelizing. But, just as there is sometimes aggressive Christian evangelizing, there are also some forms of Baha'i teaching that most would put squarely in the category of proselytizing.

For example, Baha'is do door-to-door teaching ala JWs and LDS. It's not pushed, but I would say that it is encouraged for those individuals who want to do it. Likewise pamphleting in public places, which really is not much different than having a booth. And hey! I am not criticizing that Baha'is do these things. I was totally into teaching as a Baha'i; I know it is done out of love and enthusiasm as much as out of obligation.

The miscommunication seems to be based in the fact that Baha'is say that they do not proselytize and are not out to convert anyone when to casual observers there is not much distinction between teaching a religion and proselytizing. I totally understand how Baha'is make the distinction, and I understand the extensive use of quotes, but that does not change things in the minds of non-Baha'i readers.

Finally, as a Baha'i, I thought I knew the rule about not proselytizing, but it also seemed to be very much the point that teaching was about gaining converts to the Baha'i Faith. Is it also against Baha'i law to admit that you seek to gain converts? Perhaps I should write to the UHJ!

peace,
and I'm starting to be sorry I started all this again.
Laurie

[Tao_Equus]

Thank you Scott,
I do see where you are coming from but as Luna points out no non-Baha'i will agree with such a fine destinction. You can quote literal dictionary defenitions but its the perception in peoples minds that really tune a word's nuance. I said before that it's illogical rule of your faith to prohibit it but on reflection it is maybe a useful tool in keeping check on the fervour of some individuals who might be prone to aggresive recruiting.
On the whole I find that the Baha'i as represented by yourself and others here on CR to be very peaceful and genuine. Where you offer insight into your thinking I far from always agree but find it enlightening and educational. Luna has stated that she's begining to regret starting on this subject and I cant blame her. Its one of these circular ones where no consensus will be reached. So I back out of it now with respect.

Regards

TE

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Thank you Scott,
I do see where you are coming from but as Luna points out no non-Baha'i will agree with such a fine destinction. You can quote literal dictionary defenitions but its the perception in peoples minds that really tune a word's nuance. I said before that it's illogical rule of your faith to prohibit it but on reflection it is maybe a useful tool in keeping check on the fervour of some individuals who might be prone to aggresive recruiting.
On the whole I find that the Baha'i as represented by yourself and others here on CR to be very peaceful and genuine. Where you offer insight into your thinking I far from always agree but find it enlightening and educational. Luna has stated that she's begining to regret starting on this subject and I cant blame her. Its one of these circular ones where no consensus will be reached. So I back out of it now with respect.

Regards
TE

When all is said and done, we'll all survive.

My respects to you as well,

Scott

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by smkolins

Actually I don't think it is a very good point, despite the norms around here. CR is a voluntary place where one should expect to discuss religion.

Indeed - discuss religion, not post a library about it.

Originally Posted by smkolins

But whatever purpose scripture has been bent to, it must in essence remain it's own purpose.

As has been said in many other threads, there are often so many misconceptions of the Baha'i Faith, that to use our own words sometimes causes us grief when we make a mistake, or when others take our comments out of context. If can stick to the scriptures, then we raise or fall on what we stand for, rather than what my fumbling attempt might or might not convey.

We're here for interfaith discussion - to use our own words to convey our opinions.


EDIT: Let me clarify this - it's expected that every now and then someone will want to quote their scriptures to justify a position, underline a point, and generally add emphasis by point of reference to what they are discussing.

The issue unique to the Baha'i membership here is the habitual use of scripture in general. It's simply not necessary, and it is unbalancing to CR.

If every other faith here is able to post in majority without having to quote scripture with every post, then I can't really accept that Baha'i members in general need to be treated as an exception.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Actually, those were not my first posts. And that was an intent YOU applied to the posts in question - beauty is not the only thing which resides in the eye of the beholder.

...

You read with an eye to censure what I had written without paying any attention to what I had written or quoted. If you're going to censor posts because you are prejudiced, you're going to have to get used to the fact that prejudice is what it is.

Your first two posts were:

- posting an anti-Islamic/pro-Baha'i thread on the Islam board
- posting an anti-Islamic/pro-Baha'i thread on the Baha'i board

Daring to claim my removal of those to be an issue of prejudice demonstrates an approach that simply isn't acceptable here - you appear to be arguing that so long as you think your behaviour is okay, then you shouldn't be held accountable to any other standard.

I'm saying you are and will be when you post on CR. There's an attempt to create an even playing field for all religions here, and that means everybody has to be treated in the same manner.

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

I would draw this distinction. If you have a booth at the fair and go out of your way to give people literature who did not ask for it, you are proselytizing.

Which Muslims invited you to post that their religion was flawed and that Baha'i had superceded it? If you were not invited so, then you were clearly proselytising, regardless of any semantical argument.

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

So teaching offered is simply offered. It is not pressed with warnings of consequences, it is not salted with hopes of reward, it is just offered.

I think this is a key problem with persons such as yourself - that so long as proselytising isn't done in an aggressive manner, then it's not proselytising. But just because someone uses a friendly voice when trying to promote their faith does not make it otherwise. Arguing semantics will not wash.

Absolutely nobody is here to with a remit to teach their faith under any definition - we're here to discuss our personal viewpoints in an environment of mutual respect.


I should also underline that we've had a constructive Baha'i membership here for the past 2 years - people who showed an apparently genuine interest in multi-faith dialogue - smkolins, BruceDLimber, 9HArmony, barefootgal, IMsassasfras, for example.

However, over the past 6 months that has deteriorated, as self-promotional issues have come to a head. You yourself came in proselytising, argue semantics about the issue - then dare to claim that I'm prejudiced for calling you to account.

CR has shown an overwhelming tolerance to try and accomodate every person of every faith - I didn't ban you despite your original entrance, because we like to try and give everybody a chance to be constructive here - and if you think we're negatively prejudiced for doing so, then that's your opinion to hold.

But we can only offer as much hospitality as we have. For people who wish to reject that - the internet is a far bigger place than CR.

[BruceDLimber]

Brian, we've explained several times why Baha'is tend to prefer quotes rather than our own words, so I don't know why this isn't now clear.

BTW, what is a "constructed Baha'i membership?"

And one more question, if you happen to know: why is the "Quick Reply" box sometimes available and sometimes not?

Thanks.

Bruce

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

what is a "constructed Baha'i membership?"

My bad - typo: "constructive" - now corrected.

As for prefering quotes - my point of reference is to ask myself if it would be acceptable for a Christian to post across the boards - for example, Neo-Paganism - while quoting the Bible extensively with their posts. I think it would be pretty clear that it could be taken as potentially invasive and unnecessary.

At the end of the day, without quotes is a better way of engaging in dialogue - we're here to represent our own opinions, rather than present the opinions of our religions.

I'm hoping this isn't going to be a general issue, though - I mentioned it because it was raised and expanded upon.

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

And one more question, if you happen to know: why is the "Quick Reply" box sometimes available and sometimes not?

Shouldn't happen like that - but there have been a couple of bugs in the board software. We're going to undergo a board upgrade pretty soon - I'm hoping that tidies some of the loose ends. See what happens.

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Amy, nice to *hear* your voice again.

I guess I would say that because there are more Christians than Baha'is there are also more obnoxious Christians than obnoxious Baha'is. Sorry that your booth was assaulted.

Certainly people have different ideas about what is good or effective evangelizing and I certainly would say that attacking your booth like that was not good behavior, Christian or otherwise. As I said above to Scott, evangelizing does not always look like pamphleting and paid missionary work. I think that just showing Christ's love to each other, living the life as Baha'is say, is the best evangelizing. But, just as there is sometimes aggressive Christian evangelizing, there are also some forms of Baha'i teaching that most would put squarely in the category of proselytizing.

For example, Baha'is do door-to-door teaching ala JWs and LDS. It's not pushed, but I would say that it is encouraged for those individuals who want to do it. Likewise pamphleting in public places, which really is not much different than having a booth. And hey! I am not criticizing that Baha'is do these things. I was totally into teaching as a Baha'i; I know it is done out of love and enthusiasm as much as out of obligation.

The miscommunication seems to be based in the fact that Baha'is say that they do not proselytize and are not out to convert anyone when to casual observers there is not much distinction between teaching a religion and proselytizing. I totally understand how Baha'is make the distinction, and I understand the extensive use of quotes, but that does not change things in the minds of non-Baha'i readers.

Finally, as a Baha'i, I thought I knew the rule about not proselytizing, but it also seemed to be very much the point that teaching was about gaining converts to the Baha'i Faith. Is it also against Baha'i law to admit that you seek to gain converts? Perhaps I should write to the UHJ!

peace,
and I'm starting to be sorry I started all this again.
Laurie

Hi Laurie,

Sorry for my absense lately, life in general has been rather chaotic and has left me little time to post.

Regarding the fair booth, i never once felt attacked, rather i understood that they simply felt they were doing something meritorious in the sight of God. They felt they were protecting passers by from us. It didn't keep people who were really interested from by-passing them and approaching our booth. We had a backdrop behind us which said "The Baha'i Faith" and underneath it said "Unity in Diversity" the backdrop itself was covered with pictures of diverse people mingling together. Which was visible above their heads, so who knows, perhaps they actually drew peoples attention to us, who normally may not have noticed.

Regarding door to door teaching, this is not anything that I have ever done in the time I've been a Baha'i. I think this was utilized frequently perhaps in the 70's, but not recently. It may still be done in some bigger metropolitan areas, but more along the lines of inviting neighbors to study circles, devotional gatherings, and childrens or youth classes.

Regarding gaining converts...of course every religion hopes to increase their membership. But the Baha'i Faith to me is different in that we simply share what we've learned and it is entirely up to the audience what to do with that information. We will never coerce anyone into joining us. We will never promise eternal salvation. It is the decision of each individual. It is between themselves and God.

When i first became a Baha'i. Some members of my family thought i had been brain washed into joining a cult. But that could only be true, if I brain washed myself. I am isolated, attended a couple firesides, but the majority of my own investigation was simply reading the Baha'i Writings for myself. It was my decision alone, and one i have yet to regret.

As for it being against Baha'i law to admit we seek to gain converts...I don't really think it is a law perse, but rather an act of humility. If we begin to feel proud that we perhaps led someone to the Faith, inevitibly something seems to happen to make us realize that it is not us, it is the act of allowing God to work through us that is responsible.

As for your point of how others tend to see us in these discussions, I think that is a valid point. We are all learning how to communicate in this online world, and one i always try to keep in mind. Though not always successfully. I for one am grateful for the opportunity to learn from all of you in this way. There seems to be a very fine line, a balance we are all trying to achieve, apparently we haven't found it yet.

Don't feel bad for bringing this up again. If these are issues that trouble you then they should be discussed.

Take Care!

Loving Greetings, Amy

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


interesting thread.

for my own part...

though it may not seem like it, i do possess the wherewithall to read the scriptures for myself, honest.

i actually do not require them to be quoted to me as they tend to be, seeing as i have Ocean and all of that

in any event... it is an interesting discussion insofaras most of the Bah'ai seem to shy away from giving their views when asked, specifically, for their personal view, protesting that they may misunderstand. whilst this is a valid concern, especially in a religious discussion, we are not asking (well, i am not usually asking) for any definitive explanation from any particular individual. as i have a bit of understanding of the hierarchial structure of the Bah'ai faith, i realize individuals are not in any position to make authoritive statements.

as such, i'm not interested in those i'm interested in dialog and discussion, for the most part. sometimes, i'm just interested in cheese cake.. with strawberry topping... but, i digress

let me say, and i think i speak for most beings on this forum, we do not expect any being, let alone a Bah'ai to be "perfect". as a consequence, perhaps it would be beneficial to engage in dialog, voicing ones own views and experiences within the context of the Bah'ai tradition?

naturally, i would expect Bah'ai folks to do as they wish in this regard... however, if you are interested in some of the reasons why there seems to be some push back regarding the standard Bah'ai approach, please consider what we are saying. as well recieved as it could be, please consider talking to us rather than quoting scripture at us

metta,

~v

[9Harmony]

Namaste Vajradhara!

Thank you for your post. I apologize it's taken me so long to respond. I've attempted to several times, and keep getting sidetracked.

So, i'll try again.

I think there's a few things going on here. For one, we are all trying to find a balance, which apparently we haven't mastered yet.

Our writings tell us to quote the writings in our speech, so that they may affect the hearer. We believe that the Word of God is the divine medicine which will heal humanity of it's afflictions. This is the main reason you will see us use quotes frequently.

I know with me time has been a factor, and sometimes it just easier to post a quote than trying to fumble around explaining it in my own words. But it is something i've personally been working on, with some success. Although I still have a lot of work to do in that regard.

It also seems to me, that perhaps, people here are too quick to condemn our methods. It seems to me that some members of other faiths, on other boards, quote extensively, yet i never see their methods called into question.

for example, in the Comparative Religions board, someone asked for similar scriptures, when i posted a bible verse and a quote from Baha'u'llah, which were saying the same thing, i was told that it was inappropriate, if it's not appropriate when it's asked for specifically, i'm at a loss.

i completely understand the need to find a balance for all members, so i will continue to post if i feel i have something of value to add, but i must say, that i am more relunctant to post now, than i have been previously.

I mostly confine myself to the Baha'i Board, the Comparative Religions board,and the Belief and Spirituality Board. I find i often have things i would like to add to other discussions, but am leary and often opt to keep quiet, for the sake of unity.

It's quite a fine line for us here. Though we appreciate the fact that a Baha'i Board has been established for us, it seems our participation has been curtailed by recent events.

I'll keep working on putting things in my own words and striving to maintain a balance acceptible to everyone.

Have a wonderful day!

Loving Greetings, Amy

[lunamoth]

Hi Amy, I hope you don't mind that I reply to your post above directed to Vaj. I just noticed that you mentioned a post of yours that was modified by Brian. I can't speak for him but if I am remembering the incident correctly the issue may have been the link, rather than the short quote in that post. Perhaps you could get clarification from him...but that was how I saw it.

Also, whenever any member starts to use extensive quotes, long essays instead of dialogue, or extensive use of links to other websites, it catches the attention of the moderators here and we keep an eye on it. A little usually is let slide, or sometimes we just don't see it, but if it is a habit with someone we usually PM them about it, and sometimes take more action if it continues. Much of this goes on behind the scenes unless the member brings it up in a thread.

Also, I'm sorry that you do not feel welcome posting in some boards of this forum. It should not be that way (I hope that it is not due to my posts and if so I apologize) I know there has been discussion about what might be appropriate or not in some boards, but respectful dialogue by any member on any board is welcome. I hope that you will reconsider participating in the other boards when the conversation interests you and you have time.

I'm always glad to read your posts, wherever they are.

peace,
lunamoth

[9Harmony]

Dear Laurie,

I never mind hearing from you my dear.

The post in question, i was asked to delete the link, but by the time i was notified, my edit option was gone. Which i relayed back, but at last check the link was still there. But the quotes i had posted had been deleted by someone other than myself.

I personally think you all do a wonderful job here, it is not my intention to call attention to the moderation here. That was just one instance that left me shaking my head. I apologize if i've offended.

I have never been made to feel unwelcome in any of the boards, i just choose to not risk stepping on any toes.

Thank you for your kind words, the feeling in mutual.

Have a wonderful day!

-Amy

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

It also seems to me, that perhaps, people here are too quick to condemn our methods. It seems to me that some members of other faiths, on other boards, quote extensively, yet i never see their methods called into question.

We do try and make the effort to treat all faith groups with an even hand, but this is often going to look unfair without the benefit of this wider context of the other staff actions being realised.

Believe me, there's a lot that actually goes on behind the scenes, across all faith groups here, but we try and stop it interfering with the overall interfaith experience - so most of the time no one except the poster in question will ever know that there was an issue raised.