Coming full circle

[China Cat Sunflower]

Ah yes! If you don't know anything else- know yourself. Know your limitations. Know when you're bluffing, and know your limits.

Actually, I have a confession to make. I'm really smart. I know lots of things. I may not be able to prove that I know these things, but I know. I've been watching everything since I was a little kid. I never believed in the authority structure. So I know lots and lots of little things about how things actually work.

Chris

[Still thinking]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

That's fascinating. Well, you're one of the lucky ones. I'm an ex Seventh-Day Adventist. I tell you, breaking out was easy compared to the effort it's taken to get the chip off my shoulder about it. I'm not there, but I'm trying.

I have this pet theory that all the really intelligent people are being somehow compelled to meet up for the good of the planet. I sometimes doubt it, but then people like you show up to tantalize me once again! I'm glad you're here!

Chris

Aww, thanks! I don't know much about Seventh-Day Adventists, except they go to church on Saturday instead of Sunday! Are they the ones where the women can't wear pants and can't cut their hair or wear make-up? Or where they don't celebrate any holidays? (Maybe I'm thinking of JW's)
Perhaps the Great Spirit is compelling us all to get together and save the planet; it's not totally impossible! Just follow the signs, see where they take you.
There's an interesting question: I'm curious, do any of you believe in destiny and signs, or is it all completely free will, or maybe a mixture of both? I'm a pure romantic at heart, so I like to think there are signs out there, but that it's up to us to choose our path. (so the mixture)

[China Cat Sunflower]

I think it's all natural. I think that we are compelled by our own evolution to expand and grow. I don't think there's anything real about morality. Getting along with each other is good for our survival. I don't think there's any tangible reward for doing good, and I don't think there's any intrinsic punishment for being bad. Good things make me feel good, bad things make me feel bad. There's no cosmic Pez dispenser that you get to push for being good, and being that the stars and planets are all bent on destruction in one form or another, I can't see how it's natural to assume some sort of benevolent control of the universe.

Chris

[Raksha]

I have this pet theory that all the really intelligent people are being somehow compelled to meet up for the good of the planet.

Chris,

Funny you should mention it...that's my pet theory too! But then you already know that.

My favorite definition of God, the one I always come back to, is what Kurt Vonnegut described as "the most powerful fuel in the Universe." He called it Universal Will to Become. That may sound a little funny to some people, but I've never been able to get any closer to it than that.

--Linda

[Still thinking]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I think it's all natural. I think that we are compelled by our own evolution to expand and grow. I don't think there's anything real about morality. Getting along with each other is good for our survival. I don't think there's any tangible reward for doing good, and I don't think there's any intrinsic punishment for being bad. Good things make me feel good, bad things make me feel bad. There's no cosmic Pez dispenser that you get to push for being good, and being that the stars and planets are all bent on destruction in one form or another, I can't see how it's natural to assume some sort of benevolent control of the universe.

Chris

Wow, so you came out of all of this an atheist? You don't think there's any spiritual realm, anything other than ourselves? I understand if you're bitter after coming out of a hypocritical religion, I'm right there with you, but you really believe the world is too cruel to believe in a Creator? That makes me sad. Isn't it hard to be hopeful and face the rough days without believing there's something better at the end of the road? Some days, the only thing that keeps me going is the belief that God's got something better for me. That after a full and exhausting life, there is some kind of afterlife to look forward to. Do you find this makes you more cynical, or does it make you more grateful? I'm curious.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Still thinking

Wow, so you came out of all of this an atheist? You don't think there's any spiritual realm, anything other than ourselves? I understand if you're bitter after coming out of a hypocritical religion, I'm right there with you, but you really believe the world is too cruel to believe in a Creator? That makes me sad. Isn't it hard to be hopeful and face the rough days without believing there's something better at the end of the road? Some days, the only thing that keeps me going is the belief that God's got something better for me. That after a full and exhausting life, there is some kind of afterlife to look forward to. Do you find this makes you more cynical, or does it make you more grateful? I'm curious.

I find great comfort in disbelief. A bad thing can just be bad. It doesn't have to fit into God's will, or be some kind of punishment or karma. When my brother died I didn't wonder how that was God's will or try to make it into a good thing somehow. It was a bugger of a rotten deal, and that's all it was.

I'm kind of a neo-Taoist, if that makes any sense. I love the process: the Way of Life. I love nature, but I don't take the fluffy bunny approach to it.

Chris

[Raksha]

I find great comfort in disbelief. A bad thing can just be bad. It doesn't have to fit into God's will, or be some kind of punishment or karma. When my brother died I didn't wonder how that was God's will or try to make it into a good thing somehow. It was a bugger of a rotten deal, and that's all it was.

Chris,

In similar tragic situations I find comfort in disbelief too. As one of the more unlikely of our mutual acquaintances put it, "There is no Why." That's pretty much the attitude I had towards my sister's death, which in some ways was even worse than my husband's because it could very well have been a suicide. At least with my husband we knew it was coming for almost nine years, although I continued to pray for a miracle right up the last minute... because you just never know. Unfortunately, no miracles were forthcoming.

I do know I would have bitten the head off any would-be comforter who had tried to find some "metaphysical" reason for either my sister's death or my husband's. I made sure I warned everyone not to go there. I said, "Any reason that could be put into words at all, wouldn't be good enough."

I know a lot of people do find comfort if they can put their grief or pain into a larger context--God's will or karma or whatever. But that's for the individual to on his own, or her own. No third party has the right to "volunteer" a meaning based in what could turn out to be a completely alien theology or world-view.

I'm kind of a neo-Taoist, if that makes any sense. I love the process: the Way of Life. I love nature, but I don't take the fluffy bunny approach to it.

I don't know if I can say I love the process or not, because there are times when the process just seems hell-bent on happening anyway and it's like an oncoming tidal wave. That's how I felt a few months ago when a whole series of synchronistic events charged with personal meaning starting hitting me one after another, seemingly building on each other and building to a peak. I sensed there was a meaning to it all, and the meaning, or purpose, seemed to be what was driving it.

I suppose I could have turned away from all the inner turmoil, but I chose (if "chose" is even the right word) to ride the waves and see where I landed. What I said at the time was "I trust the process."

I couldn't go so far as to say I love the process, but I trust the process. I believe the universe and everything in it is in the process of evolving or self-actualizing. And THAT particular boat isn't leaving the dock without me, no matter what!

--Linda

[Still thinking]

Interesting. I completely agree that, at least with some things, there is no rhyme or reason. If there is such a thing as destiny, it does not apply to every area of life, at least not every situation. Like I said, the concept of destiny is more a romantic indulgence on my part than a steadfast belief. Yet another thing I'm still considering . . . .
What is Taosim? I've heard the name, but nothing else.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Still thinking

What is Taosim? I've heard the name, but nothing else.

Daoism: A philosophy and a religion, of Chinese origin.


Check out the Tao te Ching (Lao Tzu), Chuang Tzu and Lieh-tzu (all various spellings of course). It is generally agreed I think that it cross fertilised with Buddhism when Buddhism was taken by monks to China. At least one writer has gone as far as to say that (just to give you an idea of where it's "coming from") that if you remove the religious accretions of Chan (Zen) Buddhism, then what remains is Taoism (or Daoism).

Maybe have a read here if you're interested...

BBC - Religion & Ethics - Taoism

s.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Man
patterns himself on Earth,

Earth
patterns itself on Heaven,

Heaven
patterns itself on the Way,

The Way
patterns itself on nature.

Tao Te Ching 69 (25)

This is what I bees talkin' about. I love the process, the "patterning."

Chris

[Ciel]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Man
patterns himself on Earth,

Earth
patterns itself on Heaven,

Heaven
patterns itself on the Way,

The Way
patterns itself on nature.

Tao Te Ching 69 (25)

This is what I bees talkin' about. I love the process, the "patterning."

Chris

Ah, the Great Garden and I a simple gardener. This is what I do.......

Time to remove old vines........ to make new.

But maybe something that doesn't need so much pruning this time round.

Touching heaven beyond the realms of nature.......

Allowing heaven to guide the way.

- c -

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Man
patterns himself on Earth,

Earth
patterns itself on Heaven,

Heaven
patterns itself on the Way,

The Way
patterns itself on nature.

Tao Te Ching 69 (25)

This is what I bees talkin' about. I love the process, the "patterning."

Chris

Hmm..

"Therefore it is said, 'In representing the Dao of Heaven, one uses the terms Yin and Yang, and in representing the Dao of Earth, one uses the terms Soft and Hard, while in representing the Dao of Man, one uses the terms Love and Righteousness.'"
~Zhou Dunyi, Taijitu shuo (Explanation of the Diagram of the Supreme Polarity)

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Hmm..

"Therefore it is said, 'In representing the Dao of Heaven, one uses the terms Yin and Yang, and in representing the Dao of Earth, one uses the terms Soft and Hard, while in representing the Dao of Man, one uses the terms Love and Righteousness.'"

~Zhou Dunyi, Taijitu shuo (Explanation of the Diagram of the Supreme Polarity)

Brilliant SG, this passage sums it up nicely.

[wil]

How is it when we come full CIRCLE

we end up back on SQUARE one?

[Alex P]

Because it is our chance to do things right this time around.... I'd call that a golden opportunity brow.