Combining the Sects of Abraham

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

Since each of the main branches of Abrahamic religions could be described as Judaism, Islam and Christianity, then what are the unifying beliefs over and above monotheism?

What combines them and then what are the prophecies that each share?

Meaning what is the missing link to combine the beliefs/people?

This seems to me a kind of odd way of putting the question. Both Christianity and Islam claim to be fulfillments of the Hebrew scriptures; they both specifically and repeatedly reference these scriptures, so it's not like there is some great mystery as to the "common link".

As to the content of that link, what is most fundamental, what makes it unique is a corporate idea of salvation, i.e., that salvation is ultimately seen in a "people", however defined. And so you have cognate terms like "chosen people', "kingdom of heaven", "body of Christ", "social gospel", "ummah", etc.

What fundamentally distinguishes them is that first of all Judaism is a universalist construct with an ethnic practice, while Christianity and Islam are universalist both in construct and in practice. This universalist practice naturally entails a basically absolutist ideology for both Islam and Christianity.

The fundamental distinction between Christianity and Islam is that the former stresses doctrine (the creeds) and the latter practice (shariah). Either emphasis, however, serves the same universalist ideology that can be turned to a great variety of ends.

As for claims and counter-claims: the Christian claim on the most general level is that fulfillment of the law paradoxically also involves a rupture, a metaphysical/emotional/mystical transmutation. The Christian claim therefore is that the Jews don't know how to read their own scriptures. The Jewish response: good grief!

The Muslim claim, on the other hand, is not metaphysical or emotional but essentially legalist. They go back to Abraham, they say, because the Jews have not lived up to the original injunctions of God. The Muslim claim, therefore, is that the Jews have garbled and ignored their own scriptures. The Jewish response: good grief!

Such is my contribution to interfaith dialogue!

[Dream]

Devadatta, I mostly agree but with one small caveat. What you have said about Christianity has some basis in its modern practice. The Pauline letters insist practicing Jews are the keepers of the oracles of scripture. This has been borne out by history, and it must necessarily imply to Christians that Jews are very able to read and understand the scriptures. On that basis there is a lot of potential for Christians to respect Judaism, both its purpose and practice without insisting that Jews become Christians.

[Bishadi]

This seems to me a kind of odd way of putting the question. Both Christianity and Islam claim to be fulfillments of the Hebrew scriptures; they both specifically and repeatedly reference these scriptures, so it's not like there is some great mystery as to the "common link".

yet each base in compassionate relation between the participants. As one example; Moses commandments.

Yet each branched while maintaining many concepts and practices inert ‘religion’ as a word.

The fundamental distinction between Christianity and Islam is that the former stresses doctrine (the creeds) and the latter practice (shariah). Either emphasis, however, serves the same universalist ideology that can be turned to a great variety of ends.

The Christian claim therefore is that the Jews don't know how to read their own scriptures. The Jewish response: good grief!

The Muslim claim, therefore, is that the Jews have garbled and ignored their own scriptures. The Jewish response: good grief!

Such is my contribution to interfaith dialogue!

Or how about a dialogue of material.

Each;

Monotheism. For the most part. yet… praying to saints, Moses, mohammed, jesus…etc… is dual with or without admission. (there is a figure to the face or let’s say face to the figure) Broken rule by each of these sects own admonition.

Each think of creation as absolute. (mud, dust, women came from man; must rely on faith and magic) Why?

Each suggest their writings are by the words of GOD, but in each admit a man conveyed them; one from a bush, one from an unlettered man, one from the son but dead before the books were authored so a bunch of authors..

Culturally binding (promise of Abraham-circumcision)

As well each are awaiting some person to come (return) that will …. Do what?

Interfaith dialogue perhaps could begin developing these into living creations of wisdom. Maybe a kid will come alone who wants a straight answer; be good if a group of people on this site could bring up the opinions of many in specific categories.

[bananabrain]

erm... we don't pray to moses.

if i were being facetious, i might well suggest that the only thing we all agree on is that G!D Gave Torah to moses. and since that is the only thing jews believe and everyone disagrees on anything else, the only unarguable bit is the jewish bit.

*thumbs nose irreverently*

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

erm... we don't pray to moses.

if i were being facetious, i might well suggest that the only thing we all agree on is that G!D Gave Torah to moses. and since that is the only thing jews believe and everyone disagrees on anything else, the only unarguable bit is the jewish bit.

*thumbs nose irreverently*

b'shalom

bananabrain

looks like a bananabrain response.... er..um.......

no need to suggest as you may ONLY have the education that any video game playing kid walked through before going to the second game

as to comprehend that Isaac and Ishmael were blood brothers than know the fight of Islam and Jews is between brothers who care only of faith rather than chose to learn more than yesterday's teachers.

[bananabrain]

er, bishadi - that post just isn't in english. and i don't think you're in any position to criticise my level of education in judaism or indeed anything else.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Amica]

Hello/Peace/Salaam/Shallom,

Well, the way I see it is this:

Some of the similarities:

1) All three Abrahamic religions claim belief in One God
2) All three teach Abraham to be the father of their faiths
3) All three teach that the Holy Bible is the Revelation from God
4) For all three, prayers are important
5) All three claim the basis of their believes back to the 10 commandments

Some of the differences:

1) Islaam and Chrisitanity: recognize Jesus as the Messiah promised to the world; appocaliptic faiths;
2) Judaism: no recognition of Jesus as the Messiah or a prophet
3) Islaam: recognizes both Judaism and Chrstianity as authentic faiths revealed by the Word of God (the Holy Bible)
4) Christianity: recognizes Judaism as an authentic faith preceeding it, but does not recognize Islaam
5) Judaism: no recognition of Islaam or Christianity as authentic faiths
6) Christianity: claims to understand the nature of God as 'trinity'
7) Islaam and Judaism: claim that true monotheism is not a trinity

[Dream]

It is a stretch to say that Christianity understands trinity, which is something that has been hotly debated throughout the centuries. It is a stretch to say Islaam recognizes Jesus as the promised prophet. Also Christians may not recognize Islaam, yet many of them see salvation as something not on the basis of creeds anymore but on a more sublime basis. Jews, while they do not recognize Christianity do recognize all religions as existing for a purpose and potentially positive. All of these things really depend on whom you ask the questions.

[path_of_one]

I agree with you, Dream. It gets down to whether you are looking at certain sects' views on the matter, or certain individuals'.

I'm one of the Christians, or more aptly, Christ-followers, that recognizes Islam and Judaism both as entirely valid religions for their followers. And while I do use the concept of trinity to as a heuristic device to help me engage with God- almost as a koan- I don't think any person can correctly define God... so the trinity isn't a "thing" to me. It isn't what God is, but rather a way for me to expand my consciousness in an effort to get closer to God.

From what I gathered from most Jews I've talked with about the matter (granted, it isn't a carefully sampled study or something), they think that Christianity is fine for Gentiles if it's what we want to practice. As I understand it, if a Gentile is following the Noahide laws then we're doing our part in creating a good world and engaging with God. I've never yet met a Jew who told me I had to be Jewish to be "saved." It seems that the emphasis is on here/now- correct practice- rather than conversion.

As for Islam, I haven't talked to as many Muslims, but I have talked to quite a few and many of them also didn't feel Christians needed to become Muslims. There were notable criticisms of Christian practice not meshing with Christ's teachings, but then we can say this of any religion. (Ah, those pesky humans messing up a good thing. )

I think there are two ways to look at unity. One is to get everyone to agree on everything and create One Religion. The other is to get people to be tolerant, interested, and understanding in other people enough that they respect other beliefs and even might learn something from them. That is, there is unity of respect and love, with diversity of belief and practice.

I think unity in the former sense is sad and oppressive. It removes all the beauty of the diverse ways humans have engaged with God. I think unity in the latter sense is a glorious thing. We can see people as people and not as some religious label. And in so doing, we can practice our own religion more fully, more deeply, with a better understanding of our own unique path.

[seattlegal]

I would have to agree with you, Path. Can you force God into a box by insisting on only one single, one-fits-all sized religion? {sideways reference to fig leaves...}

[Monty]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

Since each of the main branches of Abrahamic religions could be described as Judaism, Islam and Christianity, then what are the unifying beliefs over and above monotheism?

The main branch of modern day Christianity cannot be described as 'Islam', for allthough the Christians define the 'trinity' concept as 'monothiesm', Islam defines it as polythiesm

Originally Posted by Bishadi

What combines them and then what are the prophecies that each share?

We share many moral principles such as do not lie, swear, steal, be good to neighbour, do not commit crimes, be just, etc, and Muslims and Christians share the prophecy of Jesus [pbuh] returning [allthough we have different concepts of who Jesus pbuh is] and of the anti-Christ who is expected near the end of time.

Originally Posted by Bishadi

Meaning what is the missing link to combine the beliefs/people?

From an Islamic point of view, the missing link is: the Christians need to alter their concept of monothiesm and bring it in line with true monothiesm and both the Jews and the Christians need to accept the Last and final messenger of God, Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Monty

From an Islamic point of view, the missing link is: the Christians need to alter their concept of monothiesm and bring it in line with true monothiesm and both the Jews and the Christians need to accept the Last and final messenger of God, Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him.

I like that! It's the unvarnished truth. Simple and straight up.

I imagine the bottom line for Christianity would have to include recognition of the divinity of Christ. How that could ever not be a deal breaker for Islam and Judaism is hard to imagine.

Chris

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Monty

The main branch of modern day Christianity cannot be described as 'Islam', for allthough the Christians define the 'trinity' concept as 'monothiesm', Islam defines it as polythiesm

the comment and thread was to share what CAN combine them....

it was note for one believer to talk bad about the other ..... are you trying to start a war or something?

We share many moral principles such as do not lie, swear, steal, be good to neighbour, do not commit crimes, be just, etc,

Good stuff

and Muslims and Christians share the prophecy of Jesus [pbuh] returning [allthough we have different concepts of who Jesus pbuh is] and of the anti-Christ who is expected near the end of time.

it is near the end times and you be closer than you think to what grounds the new beginning.

From an Islamic point of view, the missing link is: the Christians need to alter their concept of monothiesm and bring it in line with true monothiesm and both the Jews and the Christians need to accept the Last and final messenger of God, Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him.

So either we be like you or not? Is that what you are trying to say.

Heck it seems all the muscle in the middle east is opposing your exact type of thinking let alone that specific religion, in fact.

be certain my young friend; all the religions will be nothing but history very soon..

so from this we have 2 good line of truth.... be responsible as the basic rules above suggest pretty universal ideas...

and the religions will be history with the 'revealing' of the truth; that even all three religions know is coming.

p/s.... mohammed was not even alive when the quran was written... maybe if you get a grip on that reality, you might cross over into being a little more humble with how little you really know.

or better still;
mohammed was not alive when the quran was written

moses was not alive when the torah was written

and jesus was not alive when the new testamant was written

so everyone equal....

now how about the fun stuff...... like we all getting 72 virgins or is it 27...

and we get to watch dragons eat seals during the rapture while some dude is flying around rapturing just before he builds a new zion smashing the old temple down but keeping the 'rock' garden of course... all in a barren waste land of the desert... to be the city of heaven ... AAAAAAAAAMEEEEEEENNNN.

don't forget to do the cross sign in the air, in front of you and say; hey you a wops, get offa the lawn

that is what the pope is saying, right? It's supposed to be in scripture... Mad 51:50

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I imagine the bottom line for Christianity would have to include recognition of the divinity of Christ.

There's still disagreement in Christianity as to what the divinity of Christ means. Is Christ God or not- that issue. There are denominations of Christianity that do not see Christ as God. Of course, these aer often seen as heretical by the others.

[path_of_one]

Bishadi- I don't think Monty was saying anything bad about Christianity or Judaism. I think it's just the standard Muslim viewpoint- we should be believing Muhammad as a prophet and be forthrightly monotheistic.

Same as the standard Christian viewpoint is that we should accept the Trinity.

Same as the standard Jewish viewpoint that Judaism is sufficient.

It's not that any uniformly see the others as bad, but there's no reason not to be honest about the differences.