clothes...

[wil]

It is written that the centurions fought over Jesus clothes when he was crucified. It is also written his garment was seamless. Now my contention is that he being the leader of his band, and folks giving money, food, and clothing as he traveled the land speaking...he was probably offered the finest of these, but a comment was made when I referred to him dressing like a king...

in the Jewish culture the rank of a person was stitched into their robes.. The woman that touched the hem of Jesus robe was submitting and acknowledging His authority.. So when Jesus said who touched my robes.. He knew who it was and why she did it.

It wasnt about vanity it was about a Jewish man observing Jewish culture.

I know what Jesus did or didn't do is not quite within your purview but perhaps you could provide some insight?

[Faithfulservant]

Since you would love to prove me an idiot I decided to try to find and I mispoke.. it wasnt embroidery it was tassles. I knew I had read up on it so there......

In Hebrew the word for tassel is tzitzit (plural, tzitziyot). The Israelites were to wear tzitzit on the four corners of their garments in order to ‘remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them’.

This tassel, or fringe, was the most important part of the basic four-cornered outer garment, called a tallit, worn by Israelite men on a daily basis. The tzitzit served as a constant reminder of the commandments of God, and symbolised God’s authority, sovereignty and rule.

[dauer]

I've been doing a lot of reading on tzitzit as part of my own choice to start wearing tzitzit katan, the undergarment with tzitzit on each corner, in the form of neatzit. I will, of course, dye my neatzit with indigo as techelet (a no-no according to traditional rabbinic opinion) in order to instill them with additional personal significance related to tsaar baalei chaim which tells us we should be concerned for the suffering of animals. (Techelet is usually made with an animal-based dye.) (my chulyot will be tied according to Rambam.)

Originally they likely varied from person to person in the way they were tied. One could use their tzitzit, almost as a signature, impress it onto something to confirm who a message has come from. I belive I read it was a custom to take hold of each other's tzitzit when forming some type of binding vow or agreement, like the way we'll "shake on it" today.

By limiting the techelet to only one strand of the tzitzit, it meant that all people had a chan.. ack, gotta run. My girlfriend just arrived. Will continue this later if I have time.

Dauer

[wil]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Since you would love to prove me an idiot I decided to try to find and I mispoke.. it wasnt embroidery it was tassles. I knew I had read up on it so there......

Namaste FatihfulServant,

I apologize if I am so misunderstood that anyone would believe I would want to make anyone look like an idiot. It is not my intention in any way, shape or form. I want to learn. And when I want to learn something about Jewish tradition, I go to the Jews I know. I have read in various places regarding the group that Jesus traveled with being looked forward to as they entered a town. I can imagine them being received by some of the wealthy folks in town and offered great sleeping quarters, banquets and such. That is where I was coming from...if you have a celebrity hitting town and hundreds and thousands are going to be listening to him, I'd imagine some of those that listen will want to show their appreciation...

If there is something for me to learn in this regard..I'm headed for it. What I've done I've done in the open on our boards...I've also emailed a Hazzan and Rabbi at temples I attend, and sent some queries off to other Jewish friends. And when I find clarification I'll let you know....but not so as to make you an idiot...far from it, so as to provide us equal footing on the sources of information to which we may learn.

Hopefully BB and Dauer or others may have something to offer.

[dauer]

I was going to say, in addition to above, limiting the amount of techelet means it's more likely people can afford it. And the color was often used as a signal of nobility in other colors, so it almost acted as an equalizer, or at least doublespeak.

Dauer

[flowperson]

If I'm not mistaken, the original tent/tabernacle in the desert at Shiloh had extensive red and blue border tasseling used as decorations on the interior of the tent. Perhaps the later adaptation of these decorative devices on clothing was an attempt by the faithful to tie their personas to the sacred origins of the faith.

In the earlier and more ancient near East, such practices were very prevalent among the royal and professional classes. Lots of spiral decorative motifs were apparent, especially in hair and beard arrangements and fabric designs. Bird and bull images were also popular.

flow....

[dauer]

Correction to above "And the color was often used as a signal of nobility in other cultures..."

I originally wrote colors.