Clean and Unclean Animals

[Dondi]

I'm confused.

I happened to be reading from Deuteronomy for my daily bible reading and I came across this passage from chapter 12:

15 Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh within all thy gates, after all the desire of thy soul, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which He hath given thee; the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the gazelle, and as of the hart.
16 Only ye shall not eat the blood; thou shalt pour it out upon the earth as water.

And again, it is repeated later in the chapter:

21 If the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to put His name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat within thy gates, after all the desire of thy soul.
22 Howbeit as the gazelle and as the hart is eaten, so thou shalt eat thereof; the unclean and the clean may eat thereof alike.
23 Only be stedfast in not eating the blood; for the blood is the life; and thou shalt not eat the life with the flesh.
24 Thou shalt not eat it; thou shalt pour it out upon the earth as water.

(Source: JPS 1917 Edition)

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Leviticus 11 forbid the eating of certain animals, deeming them unclean?

Yet here, it appeared that God lifted that ban.

It occurred to me that Deuteronomy was given primarily to the second generation of Jews coming out of Egypt, who would inherit the Promised land, which was denied the first generation due to unbelief and disobedience for not believing Joshua and Caleb concerning the giants in the land.

So my thinking is that the laws in Leviticus were really for the time spent in the 40 year wilderness and had much to do with healthy living in regard to dietary consumption. So then by the time the second generation entered the Promised Land, there was less danger in eating such animals. Else, why would God allow the eating of both clean and unclean animals in Deuteronomy 15?

Am I missing something here?

[17th Angel]

Indeed, certain animals were and still are not acceptable to eat... god's law is looking out for you his devote faithful sheep. Basically... animals that are scavangers... that eat the left overs and such... because of the dieases and cr*p they pick up can pass to us, it isn't the smartest thing to eat them.

But this isn't the only thing it isn't just the animal that is unclean or clean, it is obviously as it shows in the scripture you have added that certain -methods- of eating animal are unclean... You are to drain the blood and cook the food... As consuming the blood isn't acceptable... Neither is just killing the animal for the hell of it... err proverbs 12:10?

"The righteous one is caring for the soul of his domestic animal, but the mercies of the wicked ones are cruel."


If you wish *rolls eyes* I can go into detail why it was like this or hopefully someone else will explain it, I am lazy.... But basically jah says the soul and life is in the blood and it is a sacred liquid not to be consumed....

-edit post--

Sorry, from memory in Lev 11 and in Deut 12 there are do's and dont's? I must not understand, sorry.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Indeed, certain animals were and still are not acceptable to eat... god's law is looking out for you his devote faithful sheep. Basically... animals that are scavangers... that eat the left overs and such... because of the dieases and cr*p they pick up can pass to us, it isn't the smartest thing to eat them.

But this isn't the only thing it isn't just the animal that is unclean or clean, it is obviously as it shows in the scripture you have added that certain -methods- of eating animal are unclean... You are to drain the blood and cook the food... As consuming the blood isn't acceptable... Neither is just killing the animal for the hell of it... err proverbs 12:10?

"The righteous one is caring for the soul of his domestic animal, but the mercies of the wicked ones are cruel."


If you wish *rolls eyes* I can go into detail why it was like this or hopefully someone else will explain it, I am lazy.... But basically jah says the soul and life is in the blood and it is a sacred liquid not to be consumed....

Well, thanks for your reply, 17th. I was looking for a more orthodox response, but you do bring out some good points. I might point out that Proverbs 12:10 is probably is referring more to work animals rather than animals reserved for consumption. Plus it speaks of cruelty to animals. There are humane methods in the OT of how to prepare an animal for slaughter.

[bananabrain]

dondi:

it's not clean and unclean *animals* - it's clean and unclean *people* - ie it refers to the state of cultic purity of the people who are eating the animals. people who are tamei ("unclean") by reason of a seminal emission, flux, tazria ("leprosy") or contact with a corpse may not necessarily eat with people who are tahor ("clean") - in fact, depending upon the status of the "unclean" person, they may have to stay outside certain areas of the encampment. this verse is making clear that there are circumstances in which the two *can* eat together. i hope that's clear. for more details:

Chumash with Rashi - Re'eh - Parshah

b'shalom

bananabrain

[17th Angel]

I see... Well, I tried... lol.

If I may bring one scripture to the table? Gen1:26 onwards doesn't jah approve of everything as acceptable to eat? So how can things change and things become unclean to eat? I appologise if I am complicating the issue..

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

dondi:

it's not clean and unclean *animals* - it's clean and unclean *people* - ie it refers to the state of cultic purity of the people who are eating the animals. people who are tamei ("unclean") by reason of a seminal emission, flux, tazria ("leprosy") or contact with a corpse may not necessarily eat with people who are tahor ("clean") - in fact, depending upon the status of the "unclean" person, they may have to stay outside certain areas of the encampment. this verse is making clear that there are circumstances in which the two *can* eat together. i hope that's clear. for more details:

Chumash with Rashi - Re'eh - Parshah

b'shalom

bananabrain

Ah, I wasn't even thinking about unclean people. The passage looked to talk about animals. Makes sense. The link was helpful. Thank you for clearing that up, BB.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I see... Well, I tried... lol.

If I may bring one scripture to the table? Gen1:26 onwards doesn't jah approve of everything as acceptable to eat? So how can things change and things become unclean to eat? I appologise if I am complicating the issue..

Actually, if you look down at Gen 1:29, it speaks of eating herbs and fruits for their meat. I'm wondering if God intended us to be vegetarians in the beginning.

The first mentioning in the bible of "clean" and "unclean" animals occurs in Genesis 7:2, when God told Noah to bring seven of every clean animal and two of every unclean animal into the Ark. I don't know how Noah distiguished between the two, since I don't see any instructions prior to this to determine what is clean and what is unclean. Maybe, BB can shed light on this.

[17th Angel]

That is quite Interesting indeed because I was reviewing in my mind the Gen story and this is obviously the start, this is it!! Here we go, here's the rules. So where does it mention animals in gen 2:16 ?

lol, I think you're onto something...

Are you from christ's flock? a sheep of god? What does the shepherd do with his sheep? True... He guides them and makes them follow him... But, in -our- world the shepherd sells his sheep for slaughter... Would, jesus give up his followers for the chop?

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

That is quite Interesting indeed because I was reviewing in my mind the Gen story and this is obviously the start, this is it!! Here we go, here's the rules. So where does it mention animals in gen 2:16 ?

lol, I think you're onto something...

Are you from christ's flock? a sheep of god? What does the shepherd do with his sheep? True... He guides them and makes them follow him... But, in -our- world the shepherd sells his sheep for slaughter... Would, jesus give up his followers for the chop?

Hmmm....It is true that I'm a Christian, but I started this thread to get answers form a Jewish perspective. And since we are in the Judaism forum, it's best to seek answers in that manner, unless you'd rather move this out into the open Abrahamic forum.

By the way, it doesn't mention animals in Gen 2:16, only the trees of the Garden. But that doesn't necessaily imply a restriction of eating meat. think the point was about making choices in relation to God's commandment.

I don't know where you are going with this. But we all have the death sentence on us anyway. That is the reason for the hope of resurrection.

[17th Angel]

I only realised that after I placed that post... My natural reaction was it was christian based... My bad.

[bananabrain]

Gen1:26 onwards doesn't G!D approve of everything as acceptable to eat? So how can things change and things become unclean to eat?

in the garden of eden, humans were vegetarian - in fact, they would have picked their food off the trees (well, virtually all the trees). after a&e were kicked out, they had to till the soil and cook their vegetables, but humans were not allowed to eat meat until noah's sons were born. see rashi's comment on 1:30:

Chumash with Rashi - Bereishit - Parshah

Actually, if you look down at Gen 1:29, it speaks of eating herbs and fruits for their meat.

well, not exactly. the text refers to "seed-bearing" herbs and fruits.

there are also sources which suggest that we will be vegetarians in the messianic era. certainly there will be big changes in the natural world, otherwise it's hard to imagine a lion going anywhere near a lamb except at lunch-time.

The first mentioning in the bible of "clean" and "unclean" animals occurs in Genesis 7:2, when God told Noah to bring seven of every clean animal and two of every unclean animal into the Ark. I don't know how Noah distiguished between the two, since I don't see any instructions prior to this to determine what is clean and what is unclean. Maybe, BB can shed light on this.

this also occurred to the talmudic sages (BT zevachim 116a) and they concluded that what was meant had to be the animals that would eventually be considered kosher by jews. they deduced from this that noah had to have been able to study the Torah in order to know what these animals were, but it's not a problem for us seeing as how as far as we are concerned, the Torah is a blueprint for the universe, as it is said: "G!D Looked into the Torah and Created the world." i wouldn't worry about it if i were you, but this should at least give you some idea that when we talk about time in the early part of genesis, we aren't talking about time in any literal sense.

But we all have the death sentence on us anyway. That is the reason for the hope of resurrection.

well, we are all destined to die, if that's what you mean - and it's hard to be resurrected if you're still alive. i suspect that's not what you mean, though....

b'shalom

bananabrain

[wil]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

in the garden of eden, humans were vegetarian - in fact, they would have picked their food off the trees (well, virtually all the trees).

"G!D Looked into the Torah and Created the world."


i wouldn't worry about it if i were you, but this should at least give you some idea that when we talk about time in the early part of genesis, we aren't talking about time in any literal sense.

Three concepts that each in their own right worthy of much discussion.

live fruitarians, the book of creation which describes the book of creation, and time

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

this also occurred to the talmudic sages (BT zevachim 116a) and they concluded that what was meant had to be the animals that would eventually be considered kosher by jews. they deduced from this that noah had to have been able to study the Torah in order to know what these animals were, but it's not a problem for us seeing as how as far as we are concerned, the Torah is a blueprint for the universe, as it is said: "G!D Looked into the Torah and Created the world." i wouldn't worry about it if i were you, but this should at least give you some idea that when we talk about time in the early part of genesis, we aren't talking about time in any literal sense.

My guess is that Noah and his sons were allowed to eat meat because they would have necessarily have had to wait to plant crops after the flood. I mean, what else could they eat until they harvested?

well, we are all destined to die, if that's what you mean - and it's hard to be resurrected if you're still alive. i suspect that's not what you mean, though....

b'shalom

bananabrain

Well, that is exactly what I meant. 17th's argument, from a Christian perspective, apologically, analogizes the shepherd with God and the sheep His people, yet shepherds will lead their sheep to slaughter. My counter is that we are already going to get slaughtered because we all have the death sentence upon us, we are destined to die. But that the resurrection is the hope we have in God that we will be risen to glory.

[17th Angel]

Yeah, but those sheep.... they don't come back.

[bananabrain]

except after a kebab.

*BAAARP*

b'shalom

bananabrain