Civil disobediance poll

[Tao_Equus]

What is the acceptable limit of civil disobedience?

[greymare]

well, tao old horse i guess that depends on the interpretation of civil obedience as opposed to disobedience.

[Tao_Equus]

Personally I think its a case of different horses for different courses. Its hard to justify torching the houses of parliament over cigarette taxes. That said there is simply not enough civil disobedience in this country. People do have the power to break governments that insist on taking a course that is at odds with the wishes of the vast majority of the electorate. As in the Iraq war. If we had had the same protests in France that we had here over the Iraq war they would not have remained peaceful. When the line is crossed it is dangerous yes, but passive demonstrations are routinely ignored now. It is only when a demonstration stops the normal operation of services and, most importantly, business that a government feels threatened.

A disruptive protest does not mean a violent one and violence should be avoided. Often a government will instruct the police, (like the Thatcher government did during the Poll Tax riots), to foment violence. They control the media and can paint it how they wish. So the most effective protests are not violent but hit the government where it hurts....in the pocket. I think what we need is for a new era of protest that specifically targets the major industries of a nation with the aim of bringing them to a standstill. Street protests, I repeat, are routinely ignored and usually go uncovered by the media. They are ineffective. But we are all employees with great inside knowledge on what could cripple the business machine. This is where the future is. Large bodies of independently acting spanners in the works. Often anonymous but working toward a mutual goal of wresting back power from the people who see us only as business assets or as potential consumers and not as caring people with real lives and a real sense of social justice.

Up the revolution!!

[Paladin]

I think here in the States the mass of people will never develop a group consciousness enough to make a difference.
As Wil pointed out in another thread, we have enough distractions to keep us fat and somewhat happy so we don't make waves. I often wonder what it would take to wake people up to the movement toward a police state our great country is taking.
The Spirit of Resistance Lives!

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I often wonder what it would take to wake people up to the movement toward a police state our great country is taking.
The Spirit of Resistance Lives!

Perhaps getting tickets in the mail from the red-light cameras might wake a few up...

[path_of_one]

Because I can't say what others might think "civil disobedience" entails, I went with the middle of the road approach.

As for "restricted areas," I think there are appropriate and inappropriate areas to gather in protest. Just because a protest is non-violent does not mean it cannot be psychologically damaging. I am thinking of some of the protests that happened at military cemeteries during funerals of fallen war veterans in the last couple years. While such actions may be non-violent, they are rude and insensitive to families in the grieving process, and are therefore psychologically damaging to those people.

I think government buildings, in general, should not be restricted and disruptive but passive events should be allowed. But I draw the line at certain places- anywhere that will greatly harm the environment through trampling or other problems (for the most part, I think manmade parks are fine in cities, but I don't want a crowd trampling a national park or forest) or anywhere that will psychologically damage citizens (such as cemeteries). Just my opinion-- I didn't think it out for more than a minute, either, so I'm sure if I were writing the policy or something I'd put more thought into it.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I think here in the States the mass of people will never develop a group consciousness enough to make a difference.
As Wil pointed out in another thread, we have enough distractions to keep us fat and somewhat happy so we don't make waves. I often wonder what it would take to wake people up to the movement toward a police state our great country is taking.
The Spirit of Resistance Lives!

I'm not sure if I agree with this assessment, Paladin. As disappointing as I find the group consciousness in the United States, it has been catalyzed and revolutionized before--the most salient example being the 1960's, but also during the abolitionist movement, during the workers' movement towards the end of the 19th and early 20th century, in reconstruction-era civil rights gains (when more Afro-Americans held representative office than any other time in American history), and of course during the formative years in this country--which is admittedly a bit different, but those people were also revolutionaries struggling against injustices from an unjust and autocratic government. With the current turbulence within the United States, resistance is fomenting and finding expression. Media outlets still by and large serve corporate interests, yet there are many media outlets that exist truly for, of, and by the people. Truly revolutionary forms of media are within easy grasp, waiting for people of conscience and consciousness to shape and create them. These need not be ideological propaganda machines or simple inflammatory pamphlets; with the advances in communication technology, especially with the internet, complex conversations can be engaged, which catalyze creative movements for people-powered struggles against the stale and corporate-serving status quo.

A first step is to reject the myth of helplessness that has been drilled into us by education and experience within the Corporate Nation-State. Electoral politics as usual may indeed be inadequate to create the desired and necessary changes, so rather than being completely discouraged by that state of affairs, we should recognize it for what it is and channel our energies into alternative and more effective change agents.

Equally important in the effort to actualize a life and society that is meaningful is our own self-education. The materials and resources are abundant; again only waiting to be uncovered. The educational system of the corporate culture is certainly inadequate, but that does not keep me from utilizing my local university library. Local public libraries are great, too. Bookstores are still in existence, and if you look closely, you will even find some non-corporate, independently-owned ones. Once again, the internet is also a great resource, especially if we do some digging. Documentaries and other movies can also be extremely educational. Music can be inspirational and educational. This isn't just information we are saturated with these days, but also inspiration and interactive communication. Of course, it's all just passive potential until we engage with it and let it act on us as we in turn act on it. Through a dynamic process of feedback with information and situation, and most importantly with other human beings, we can catalyze and revolutionize even this stale, deadly culture that has manipulated and acted on us for too long. We are not merely passive agents, but active intelligent individuals who have the right and responsibility to implement change in culture and government.

[Paladin]

I like your vision much better Pathless

Ever see this one? Zeitgeist - The Movie

[Tao_Equus]

Cool speech Pathless!!

[cyberpi]

No taxation without direct representation.

No law without faith in every individual... no law without the repeated vote of the people.

[gp1628]

The poll seems to miss a step. It goes from "seek permission for passsive" to "the right to disruptive". I would have preferred a "no need for permission for anything non-disruptive" level.
But good subject.

[path_of_one]

That's an excellent post, Pathless.

1. Ditch the "I'm a victim" mentality.

2. Educate oneself.

3. Take action!!!

Personally, I think the U.S. is slowly but surely getting there... People are waking up and realizing they don't really want/need the stuff, but rather they want fulfillment, peace, meaning...

[Pathless]

Thanks for the kind kudos, everyone.

Paladin, I haven't watched the Zeitgeist movie yet--it's long--but will make an effort to do so.

Originally Posted by path_of_one

1. Ditch the "I'm a victim" mentality.

Ah, but we are victims--victims of a merciless, heartless, dehumanized 'culture' that has become so greedy and short-sightedly materialistic as to quite possibly set us on the road to complete financial and social collapse. While I agree that dwelling on victimization is counter-productive, I find it impossible to move at all without acknowledging how dehumanized 'culture' has become, and how arrogantly vested industrial and materialistic interests have gambled with the human condition. We should be angry; we should feel like something is deeply wrong and that we have been systematically denied some deep experience of our own humanity and community; we should be frustrated with the status-quo. Without those feelings, which don't necessarily lead to a 'victim mentality' unless they are consistently denied expression, people continue to punch buttons stupidly in a mechanized and indocrinated state, never knowing the extent to which they are imprisoned, impoverished, and denied their own rights to freedom and life.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

No taxation without direct representation.

No law without faith in every individual... no law without the repeated vote of the people.

Hey!! Well who ever would have thot it!! We agree on 2 out of 3 points!! The one I highlighted I dont understand.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Ah, but we are victims--victims of a merciless, heartless, dehumanized 'culture' that has become so greedy and short-sightedly materialistic as to quite possibly set us on the road to complete financial and social collapse.

We are the victims of ourselves.

Culture is made up of individual action. We could choose different. So far, we've chosen (collectively) status quo.

I choose to see it that the "system" is not optimal, and it is often unjust. But I refuse to see myself as a victim. I recognize that I can opt out quite a bit, and I could opt out entirely but so far I make the choice to stay in for a variety of reasons.

I look around and I see a society that, despite all its problems, gives people the freedom to live in a commune (and some do) or as the Amish do (and some do). We *are* free to opt out. Most people just still want their car and television and private house and all the trappings. And the cost of wanting that sort of life is taxes, a work schedule, and all the system brings with it.

The fact is, if enough people opted out and changed their lifestyle, the system would collapse and culture would change. We keep it as it is- a system based on inequality and dehumanization.