Civil disobediance poll

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

We are the victims of ourselves.

Culture is made up of individual action. We could choose different. So far, we've chosen (collectively) status quo.

I choose to see it that the "system" is not optimal, and it is often unjust. But I refuse to see myself as a victim. I recognize that I can opt out quite a bit, and I could opt out entirely but so far I make the choice to stay in for a variety of reasons.

I look around and I see a society that, despite all its problems, gives people the freedom to live in a commune (and some do) or as the Amish do (and some do). We *are* free to opt out. Most people just still want their car and television and private house and all the trappings. And the cost of wanting that sort of life is taxes, a work schedule, and all the system brings with it.

The fact is, if enough people opted out and changed their lifestyle, the system would collapse and culture would change. We keep it as it is- a system based on inequality and dehumanization.

Yes, we are free to do quite a bit, but it is difficult to opt out entirely. I suppose in some ways I am just stubborn and bitter about the complex reality that I find myself in. Although there is freedom, I don't yet feel free enough, and beyond that there are powerful forces that impinge on not just my personal freedom, but as I see it, the ability of anyone to experience high levels of and a high qulaity of freedom.

I also refuse to be a victim, but it's not simple. Perhaps it seems like it's just a matter of personal willpower, just a matter of saying "I don't want to be exploited," or "I want to live this particular way, because it is more free," but I've not found it to be so. My personal experience is that, at a young age, I was separated from my family for long hours of the day and thrust into a completely different social setting where children were shepherded and penned, coralled by a few adults who tried to impose some premeditated order through games and nap time. Later, it became reading and writing exercises, and then math and science; still later, it became full-scale indocrination into a system of behavior and traditions, as well as a certain (boring!) version of history, as well as a certain set of expectations of what life was to be: career, striving, saving money and making sound investments, taking vacations, observing certain strange holidays, and upholding all manner of insincere social obligations, followed by retirement.

I went along with it for a while. What choice did I have? This was the life that confronted me, and its messages were contradictory, complicated, and seemed to grate against some essential part of me. With the information I was receiving about the world, that essential part of me was irrelevant and had no place, so I began to see it as a flaw that ran through my being and should be conditioned out. But why was it so difficult to condition out? Why did this feeling of being overwhelmed, at odds, cheated, this feeling of something being not right with my daily reality not go away? Why these persistent feelings of alienation and irritability, this deeply-running sense that I was different and could not be fixed? Yet I didn't have time to introspect, or the time that I did have wasn't enough, and the track of education/indoctrination swept me along, and I was very unhappy.

Is this my fault? Is it any child's fault that they don't fit into the artificial construct that is society? Where can they turn to fit in, what are the alternatives for them if the standard education route is not serving them? There are none. You get along. You ride it out.

And then it spits you out into college, or not. And you end up with a degree or a certificate and a pat on the back and have to go get a job. But the jobs are all meaningless, and nothing quite caters to your skills or interests, because you don't know what they are, because you never got to develop them because you had to spend too much time reciting the pledge of allegiance and taking geometry and algebra and chemistry and not enough time in art classes and the art classes you took were all technique and no heart. There's no faith in the education system because it is a bunch of unrelated hour-long compartments that you shuffle through in a day, and none of them connect together very much, and some are interesting to you, but most aren't, and it's hard to relate very much to this institution that is supposed to be educating and shaping you, preparing you for "life," and then one day when you are about 16 or 17 you wake up a little bit and realize, while walking over some cracked pavement where weeds are growing through the cracks and there's an empty plastic bottle and some string and a candy wrapper all flopped there on the sidewalk like who cares, you realize that this is life, this is life, the life you are living is now and in this strange cracked concrete landscape and it's wonderful in an ugly, raw way, but you are so unfamiliar with it because you've been cooped up in schools and institutions for 12 years or more. And that's just kind of a prelude, because once you've graduated from all that school, that same oddly polluted reality is still waiting for you, stretching out in front of you, and you have to find an apartment and a job and pay bills and there's really not much time to stop and think about why, but you do when you can and it's frustrating and sad, and you get really tired, but you are resilient, too, and somehow, after a while, things aren't quite as difficult, but by that time it seems like the world is falling apart, or it already has, and there's this clamor about how we have to fix it...

pardon me if I sound like a pathetic victim. I know I'm much more fortunate than many, and I am thankful for that. And I know that we are powerful people and we can act and create change, but see, part of my deal and part of how I make change is by telling this story about this pathetic old world that got sidetracked and started putting up high-rise hotels and cranking out glitzy glamour magazines and telling people that they must work harder because of the nazis or the communists or that they should work harder because one day they will retire or they should work harder and buy more because what the terrorists want is for us to give up and stop consuming. Part of my action plan is not whining, but painting this raw vision of how irritatingly complacent and stupid and trite the american way can seem to its youth: the beatniks of the '50s, the '60s hippies, the punks of the '80s, those nihilistic gen x'ers from the '90s; and by comparison i imagine how difficult and frustrating and unfair life in this system might seem for someone who was called negro, for an indian on a modern-day reservation who is trying to navigate two worlds, for a black kid in the ghetto where education is even worse than my pathetic story, where the way to rise above seems to be to have a certain pair of shoes, or to get a basketball scholarship, or join the army, or sell drugs.

yeah i paint bleak pictures sometimes, and i don't give much credit to the american system. why should i? there are enough people out there who are already singing that jingle. i tell my story... i relate to those who have come before me and around me now who feel dissatisfied and who feel personally violated and like they have been done a huge disservice, as if life itself has been truncated, stunted, stripped of color and complex layers of meaning.

i say my piece. it's part of the change i want to see in the world.

peace,
pathless



...and so you also see, i would not make it in an amish community. commune... that i might have to try sometime.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Most people just still want their car and television and private house and all the trappings. And the cost of wanting that sort of life is taxes, a work schedule, and all the system brings with it.

The fact is, if enough people opted out and changed their lifestyle, the system would collapse and culture would change. We keep it as it is- a system based on inequality and dehumanization.

I think what I meant to say with my last post, and I got carried away, is that I never really wanted that material stuff. I had it, sure, growing up--which may be why I decided it wasn't worth a damn. Because I had tv and video games and a car and a suburban house and it just wasn't worth anything to me--and that has become much clearer over time--because there was no love there. It was all lifeless. It was and is crap. Just stuff to maintain and worry about. Fluff. Meaningless.

I get pissed off at people who cling to this stuff. I don't understand the mentality that thinks that a 40-hour work week of wage labor for the latest gizmo gee-whiz-bang conveniences is a good swap, and I especially don't understand how people can justify high-price lifestyles when it is clear to me that such contribute to the continual degradation of everything. I think part of my personal issues with it all is that the kind of work that I am happy about doing 40-60-even 80 hours a week doesn't pay, or at least I haven't figured out how to make it pay. So the system doesn't serve me, which is my point, and why i refuse to serve it.

And I have been doing this for a long time... or should have been. I opted-in for too long, just because it seemed a matter of survival, you know? And now that I have opted-out, i don't think i could ever go back to that fake and hollow 'working' life. My heart at least, my essence, has refused to participate for as long as i've been alive, even if my body and mind felt they had to shape up to participate to survive. my own personal anguish has to do with feeling like i am resisting as much as possible, more and more with every day, and even at times figuratively yelling in the streets to get people to see my point of view and maybe understand that capitalism and this consumer-oriented, progress-fetish excuse of a society is not really worth living in, and still, the ugly behemoth rolls on, crushing lives and livelihoods, building more SUVs, tanks, planes, even shooting junked satellites out of the sky with missiles, and food rots in crates in Haiti while people eat dirt cookies.

So yeah...

i'm sad.
i'm frustrated,
i'm unsatisfied,
i'm angry,
i'm a victim,
even as i refuse to be.

[Tao_Equus]

Pathless,

I am with you on this. From an early age, about 10 yrs old or earlier, I never understood why people insisted working such long hours at hateful jobs for things that only seemed to make them happy for a few minutes. I knew that this could never satisfy me, that I could not be a little cog in a great machine waiting for the occasional drop of oil. At 16 i left home, chose no home, no settled job, no 1 town or country. The birth of my son meant an end to my nomadic ways and I remain, 16yrs later, 'settled', sedentary and forced to ride the system. I am deeply dissatisfied and yearn to get back out there and feel free again.

But one thing I am really aware of is how the masses equate the status quo with their primary desire... security. Most of them do not want us to stand up and remind them how shallow their desires are, how mundane their day to day living is. The complexities and injustices that enable their way of life are not a part of the picture they wish to see and so they do not look. I believe everybody needs values, its the skeleton of the psyche if you will, and the simplest easiest and most conformist values, those already precisely manufactured, are the most popular choice. They dont just want TV, TV dinners, TV shopping, they want soundbite values too. Not mildly desire, but want, need...must have. They do not appreciate you or I upsetting their carefully manicured ignorances. They go to great lengths to furnish their lives with the facsimile individualism of the modern consumer and do not want you or I to tell them their bums look big in that outfit.

We are a minority, maybe 10 or 15% of us are deeply dissatisfied with being corralled as cattle. And most of us give in, we have kids like I, and have to provide the stability and security we see as necessary for their upbringing. Or we throw ourselves into a particular non mainstream endeavour such as the arts, literature or sciences. We try to find ways to overcome our relative impotence to effect a little good. The dissatisfaction we feel at the wider status quo is placated a little by our good deeds but remains a nagging reminder of that which can only be described as ineffectualness. We cannot escape being cogs unless we become spanners willing to throw ourselves into certain destruction for the equally certain knowledge that the machine wont stop for the even briefest instant.

I think all we can be is the conscience of society, and to give the occasional whisper in the ear when things look pretty awful. If we talk all the time we are ignored. If we wrap it in religion it is the religion that is responded to not the message. That often as not means a negative response. Event specific protests can still provide the most effective way to be heard but the establishment control of the media drives the protester to ever greater efforts. We are forced to shut down airports, scale the roof of parliament or infiltrate and sabotage to even make the news. Thats all we can do. That or do nothing, or run and hide somewhere remote and feel guilty about doing nothing.

Anybody have any serotonin re-uptake inhibitors? I need a soma holiday.

Tao

[wil]

I'm on the disruptive but passive model.

I'm not for burning or tearing down or vandalizing, but blocking entrances, taking over streets, laying down and being hauled away.

I've been an Uncle Sam on stilts with duct tape over my mouth marching arournd the White House when the executive branch superceded the powers of congress.

I've been in die in's on the capitol lawn, sat in front of tanks stopping a parade, hauled away from the doors at the World Bank.

When many come to the capital they get to see the folks camped out at Lafeyette park. Some folks look in disgust, others bring them food or blankets to help make it through the night, the vigils have been going on for years.

[Tao_Equus]

Then you too, Wil, know how difficult it is to make it onto a news bulletin. Britney not wearing any underwear (again) will always make it.... now how can we recruit Britney!!

Tao

[Paladin]

I guess many of us have been Bernard Marx for a time. I tried so hard to fit in, but it always seemed like I was two people. One that wanted to be like everyone else, to just fit in, be a regular Joe, the other rebelled against this constantly being able to see through the veil of Maya thrown up by society to keep us all in line. It was this that contributed to a mental breakdown when I was twenty four, and I wound up in an Army hospital for psychiatric treatment. I spent ten days in the psych ward where the docs would interview me, give me meds to sleep every night and had to sit through group therapy sessions. Most of you who know me know this was relatively unsuccessful
About ten years ago I finally burned out again after my son passed away I rebelled again seeking comfort in drugs and alcohol. Life became totally meaningless and stupid again and I found myself in opposition to nearly every idiotic convention I saw, and I saw plenty. It was time for me then to take a different tack, I knew I had to find something else or I wasn't going to make it. I had to find a way to make peace with this life or end it.

[path_of_one]

I understand what you're saying, Pathless, perhaps better than you know. My personality and my interests don't fit in this society well at all. I walk around seeing most of our cultural norms and values as meaningless.

I used to agonize over it. I used to be in emotional and mental anguish. I was depressed a lot, overwhelmed. And then I just decided I wasn't going to live my life in that space any more. I don't know quite how to put it succinctly, because it was a long journey. It is not that I don't recognize the problems inherent in our society, or that I don't work for something better. But I just don't attach myself to the outcome anymore. I look for joy, and there is plenty of it to find. Even the bad stuff normally has joy in it to be found. It's up to me how I perceive the world.

I refuse to let myself be dragged down into depression by this ephemeral system. The US capitalism materialistic culture will fall, probably sooner rather than later. Empires will come and go. Culture changes. There will changes for the better and for the worse. These tides will ebb and flow no matter how I swim in them. I don't have a choice in others' actions and the collective, but I have a choice in my own actions and, more importantly than opting out, I have a choice in how I approach my everyday life. If I choose to see it as mundane and boring and meaningless, it is. And if I choose to see it as alive and artistic and deep, it is. Even menial tasks like washing dishes can be done in a way that is deeply alive. It is up to me to train myself to respond to life in this way. I can make everything into meditation if I so choose. I can complain and drag my feet and be unhappy about a lack of time to pursue my art and writing, a lack of jobs that suit my degree, having to give 40-60 hours of my week to a job that isn't exciting or artistic... or I can make living my life into art. I can make each task a cause for joy and do it with passion.

I had come to many of these conclusions on my own, and then recently read Eckhart Tolle's "A New Earth" and saw them written out all over again. What I resist, persists. I work toward something meaningful in my life instead of spending my time depressed about the current state of affairs. I do what I can, and let the rest go- because it won't help anything or anyone for me to kill myself emotionally whilst making no impact on society. I believe that joy and peace, if in my heart, resonates outwards. And also, if in my heart is discontent, depression, anger-- that too resonates outwards. Even though it may come from a justifiable place, the energy is still negative. The more I feed that, the more my life will remain in that dark place.

I do not mean any of this as an injunction to get up and get goin' or something. I still struggle. It is not easy to live in our culture and be an introverted, artsy, spiritual person. Our society has no use for people like me, and to be useful (and therefore paid a wage) I must stretch and be someone I am not entirely. I must do a lot of stuff I think is not very important or interesting. But I just found I can make it meaningful anyway, if I think about it in the right way.

As for the larger social systems, yes, it is a dysfunctional one in many regards. I'm the last one to toot the horn of the capitalist American system. I was homeless twice as a kid. We struggled. We ate a lot of potatoes and beans and rice. My after school programs involved working and taking care of my little sister. It's a lousy and unequal system. But if I dwell there in a space of anger and depression about it, it has conquered me. The system can take my time and my stuff, but I refuse anymore to let it take my joy and my passion for life. And I recognize that I *could* quit my boring job, give away my possessions, and go live on some organic commune and raise goats. LOL That option is there. I *choose* to keep working, to pay for my house and art supplies, for my pets that are a great joy. There is no point for me to do what I used to do- to beat my head against a brick wall and lament that no matter how many hours I put into art or social/environmental activism or literature or spirituality that these things will not pay me enough for rent and food. All that does is make me unhappy with the blessings I do have, and the choices I could make.

As much as I may feel downtrodden, exploited, whatever- the fact remains that half the world is working longer hours than me in a more tedious job for about $2 a day or less. I'm a woman. In most parts of the world I would get virtually no choice about what to do with my life at all. In many societies, I'd be treated like livestock- practically sold into marriage and relegated to a life of baby-production and housework, and maybe some crop production. In many areas of the world, I'd have to work harder than I do now for less security, a shorter lifespan, and virtually no free time. Life ain't perfect, and I'm the last to say the US system is fair or sustainable or spiritually fulfilling. But I'm also realistic about how much worse life is for most other people in the world. Most of the stuff I don't like about the US system, I can alter with a change in my focus. I can find meaning, peace, joy- I can create it here.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Then you too, Wil, know how difficult it is to make it onto a news bulletin. Britney not wearing any underwear (again) will always make it.... now how can we recruit Britney!!

We've tried that, and look at the results of any press we've gotten from the likes of the rich and famous. Truth be known had any press come out of any of the stunts I've done by the masses they'd deem it acts of a crazy person and by the few as standing up, or sitting down.

But as guage of the responses and society at large the number of discontent is growing and the numbers who will act are growing. The issue is we are discontent for a variety of reasons and currently have no reason to coallesce as a group, I don't see a concensus, I don't see a leader.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by wil

But as guage of the responses and society at large the number of discontent is growing and the numbers who will act are growing. The issue is we are discontent for a variety of reasons and currently have no reason to coallesce as a group, I don't see a concensus, I don't see a leader.

I don't think we need "a leader." I think a singular leader is the last damn thing we need. We don't need a consensus. We need massive quantities of motivated people coming together in diverse movements with diverse goals. We don't need to all "work together," but we do need to work. If a thousand groups and movements were to spring up, then we would have something approaching democracy: discussions, arguments perhaps, lively conversations about policy and about making life meaningful, and direct action. Unions and cooperatives would naturally form between different groups, and those groups can work together towards their common goals, but they would not be bound to each other. When one task is done, the groups and members are free to reassess and take different and diverging courses in the new reality that has been created.

Yes, the number of those discontent and willing to talk about and act on it are growing, and will keep growing. We need to organize, sure, but not into some singular entity. That's just trouble: an easy target, or worse, another monolithic political entity. No thanks.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Yes, the number of those discontent and willing to talk about and act on it are growing, and will keep growing. We need to organize, sure, but not into some singular entity. That's just trouble: an easy target, or worse, another monolithic political entity. No thanks.

Well we've had that choice. Had it for years. We've got many political parties out there. We've got in local and national offices Greens, constitutionalists, reform, independent, we the people, socialist, libertarians, natural law and more...

But we rarely support them, rarely vote for them when they run for national election...why, because we all want to have our vote on the winner. We won't vote for someone we want, we don't want to be labeled the spoiler, we want to 'vote for someon who can win'.

We have the choices you describe right now and have for the past 50 years...but the masses refuse to vote for anything but the status quo demolicans and repubocrats.

[Pathless]

wil, you misunderstanded me. I'm not just talking about electoral politics. I'm talking about substantial organizations that are integrated into everyday life. Yes, we have Mothers Against Drunk Driving and Save Darfur and have now the wonderful Iraq Veterans Against the War, and there are peace organizations all over the country. That's good! All of that and much more is great! That's what I want to see more of, and deeper, interpenetrating the normal social waking life of every American, because being politically active is not only our right, but our responsibility. It needs to be in the forefront, not the background.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I understand what you're saying, Pathless, perhaps better than you know. My personality and my interests don't fit in this society well at all. I walk around seeing most of our cultural norms and values as meaningless.

I used to agonize over it. I used to be in emotional and mental anguish. I was depressed a lot, overwhelmed. And then I just decided I wasn't going to live my life in that space any more. I don't know quite how to put it succinctly, because it was a long journey. It is not that I don't recognize the problems inherent in our society, or that I don't work for something better. But I just don't attach myself to the outcome anymore. I look for joy, and there is plenty of it to find. Even the bad stuff normally has joy in it to be found. It's up to me how I perceive the world...

Hi path_of_one. I, too, think I understand where you are coming from. Our perspectives are not that different. At this point, you seem to have integrated yourself into the existing economy to an extent that I have not. I did once hold a very respectable job that brought me quite a bit of personal satisfaction and enough money; I have since traded up to my current lifestyle, which is actually better for me as it allows me to devote much of my time to many different issues and projects which I am passionate about, has brought me together with my fiance, while at the same time allowing me to hold a part-time job as productive member of society.

I want to counter the impression that sometimes seems to surface and confront me when I read responses to my posts: know that I am not wallowing in self-pity, soaking my pillow with tears between posts. I'm a highly functioning, relatively well-adjusted individual, finding my way clearer as time passes. As frustrated as I seem, I am still quite happy, even silly. My posts here over the past year have tended to serve as an outlet for frustrations as well as a safe space for me to meet and textually converse with many intelligent people, and also a place for me to practice a little bit of online activism. I value this online space very much.

I respect the different approaches that people here take to facilitate change in their lives. When I appear aggressive, often I feel condescended to or unheard, devalued; from my perspective, I am responding defensively, sometimes lashing out at perceived insults. I've become a bit proud over the past years, but am still rather thin-skinned.

My persistent howling about injustice is not simple self-pity, but a defensive mechanism, perhaps. I desperately want people to understand how unnecessary and inhumane the cruelty of the industrialized world is--not simply because I am hurt by it (which I am, I will not deny that), but because it is injust, and it hurts us all, without exception.

It may be that it is all about to fall, and then we will be in a real bind. I won't need to advocate for anything at that point, because we'll all be too busy scrambling to farm the land and scrape a subsistence living together.

Some links

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/7203633/the_long_emergency

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/pdf/sixteen-two/xvi-2-93.pdf

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/16955

http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/16935

http://www.zcommunications.org/zspace/commentaries/3429


My beef is not about not being able to have a good job, although that is frustrating, too. I have been and am and will continue to be irritable and upset about the fact that a large portion of the world is suffering, and another large portion of the world seems to have lost all context of what it is to be human. This is serious stuff. It demands my attention. I cannot tear myself away. I am morbidly fascinated as well as perturbed and disturbed. To me, it is as if the planet is on fire and so many people are still whistling dixie. Surreal would be a good word, except I find surrealism fun. This is more just straight-up twisted and sick.

I am a deeply hopeful person; however, I find it necessary to rub a large quantity of dirt in people's faces in order to snap them out of what seems to me to be a commodity-induced stupor, a trance. Believe me, I would like to be doing other things, but I keep getting distracted by the weird fact that many people seem to be living in surround-sound zombie-vision. If I laughed at it, I would be less than human, I think. If I joined in, even to assuage my own irritability and spare my friends my stormy moods, I'd be pissed off at myself. I'd be much less fun.



Anyhow, I am glad that we all seem to be committed to working for social change. I take comfort in that.

[path_of_one]

Pathless- I think we're basically alike. LOL I just rant to a few close relatives about injustice and then I'm calm. We've shared rants a few times too. Like I said, I struggle a ton. I just learned some ways to cope- I had to, or like Paladin was saying, life would just not be worth living.

If we ever get together and meet in person in this lovely state, watch out!

I can totally appreciate your way of going about your life. It's what I did until a couple years ago when costs got high enough that I couldn't afford a house and my horses without working full time. I'm not one for material possessions, but I do love my pets and a space to house them. My horses and dogs are my therapy. Without them, I don't honestly think I'd make it without a nervous breakdown. This society just isn't a good fit for me at all. The horses and dogs are the perfect antidote. Unfortunately, they cost money. Horses cost big money to keep. We found many places won't let you rent if you have big dogs like ours. So I am willing to work as much as necessary to ensure the security of my "babies" and "therapists." It's my coping strategy. Even if I work and commute 10 or 11 hours a day, if I get just one hour on the back of my horse, feeling what it is to be my animal self, to be totally in the moment, to be at one with another creature... it's just worth it to me.

And you're right about the collapse. I watch both fascinated and worried at things going downhill. Our system simply isn't sustainable. I thank goodness I know a lot of people who know how to ranch and farm and do some useful stuff. It may be totally odd, but my extended family actually has a plan for this scenario. And we aren't the only ones I know who do. Sometimes I wonder if I'd be happier living that kind of life, to be honest. Yeah, it'd be a harder and shorter life. Food would be boring. But the happiest time of my life has been the time I spent working 12-13 hour days on ranches doing field research. Hard work, tiring, my body hurt. But at the end of the day, I felt good. I got to see the sunrise and sunset away from the noise and traffic and buildings. I got to hear birds while I worked. I got to cooperate with nature and a horse to get things done. I miss it.

[wil]

Now I am to date the singular vote that is one step below

The right to use any means to highlight a point

To me this is abortion clinic bombers, suicidal terrorists, 9/11 pilots, pre-emptive wars, etc.

What does 'any means' mean to you?

[Pathless]

I love this little excerpt from WIN magazine, Fall of 1966:

Originally Posted by Billy T. & Kids for Earth

On 10 May 1966 Billy Tieckelmann was interviewed in San Fransisco by W. Bruce Allbin, Special Agent, INTC of the United States Army. Here are excerpts from this interview as transcribed by Special Agent Allbin and furnished to Billy.

...

Q. What steps have you taken toward your desire to effect the overthrow of the government "through understanding" and by persuading the youth of these countries not to participate in any form of military service?

A. What steps? Well, I suppose the first thing to do is to have buttons made. Right? Those guys over in Berkeley have the right idea--make a lot of buttons. They just don't have the right organizations. I suppose once you have buttons you have a good organization.

Q. Have you had any buttons made?

A. No, we don't have any. We don't have any money but this is the first step because we're looking for buttons and we've got people who are going to give us money for buttons. Mostly there's only about 75 or 80 very interested people. This thing is just being organized and we should be doing something that someone might hear about by the summer.

Q. What types of things are you going to do besides the buttons?

A. Rock and roll dances. That's where you can go and not listen.

Buttons and rock and roll dances. Subversive.