Circumcision: who invented it?

[dauer]

I don't mean to be a complete pest. But I'm still not sure I understand how that relates back to the conversation.

The Di Vinci code, as I understand it, takes some valid historical theories, some conspiracy theories and myths that run counter to the Christian myth and mixes them into a fictional story. Am I missing something extremely obvious?

You haven't offended me. I worry about any group that claims it has its hands on some universal Truth because such a claim hasn't worked very well in the past, especially your gleeful support of taking away the head scarves is a flag in my book (I don't really have a book of flags.) This type of prejudicial mentality only seems to harden over successive generations, and it only serves to separate one group from another rather than promoting tolerance.

Dauer

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Well the Di Vinci Codes is a version of Christianity that many people have started to believe as truth that is a totally says Chrsit was only a teacher, no one divine and the Romans used him for political benifits. Can you believe hat even the Vatican is pissed off with the book and even made a public announement about it being totally lies.

Other then that, hope I haven't offended you and if you are a practising Jew I'sd certainly recomend you carry on

The attention-grabbing claim in the Da Vinci Code is that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were lovers and that Jesus sired children and that Mary Mag. and Jesus's children immigrated to Marseilles where their bloodline eventually wed into the line of Merovingian kings, the most famous of which was Dagobert II. The book further claims that this bloodline is symbolized by references to the Holy Grail and that a secret society existing since the Crusades has been protecting this secret bloodline for the last 1,000 years. I don't recall there being much stink about Brown claiming Jesus was just a teacher. That would be pretty mild compared to what he does claim in his book.

That claim, BTW, (the one about Mary Magdalene) isn't unique to Brown. There is a book of speculative fiction called "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" by Liegh and Baigent published around 1983 or so from which Brown took most of this "Holy Grail" stuff.

Having said all that, the principal claim that Jesus sired children and was a lover of Mary Magdalene and the Holy Grail is Jesus's bloodline is nothing but wild speculation. Granted, he's doing it to sell books, but Brown's claim that this is some sort of historically grounded fact does not appear to me to be intellectually honest - especially given the fact that even Leigh and Baigent don't really buy off on this theory anymore - and they are the ones that came up with it.

[Postmaster]

Pretty much so Abogado del Diablo.

I don't mean to be a complete pest. But I'm still not sure I understand how that relates back to the conversation.

Certainly not a pest. I was talking about how Christianity broke away from Judaism and stoped circumcision then I mentioned the Da Vinci codes and I mentioned the author was from a Jewish mother, may the reason been for closure for him towards his or his mothers faith and pointed out why. Just general debate I suppose.

[dauer]

Oh, I see. I think I understand where you were going with that then. It just seems very tangential to me. That's probably why I didn't understand what you were getting at.

[Postmaster]

I was a bit tangential got to admit and also I can talk crap too, apologies if I have.

[mee]

Jehovah God made circumcision mandatory for Abraham in 1919 B.C.E

Circumcision was made a mandatory requirement of the Mosaic Law. "On the eighth day [after the birth of a male] the flesh of his foreskin will be circumcised."

And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin will be circumcised (Leviticus 12;3)

in recent years man has learned some of the physical reasons why the eighth day was a good time to circumcise. Normal amounts of the blood-clotting element called vitamin K are not found in the blood until the fifth to the seventh day after birth. Another clotting factor known as prothrombin is present in amounts only about 30 percent of normal on the third day but on the eighth day is higher than at any other time in the child’s life—as much as 110 percent of normal. So, following Jehovah’s instructions would help to avoid the danger of hemorrhage. As Dr. S. I. McMillen observes: "From a consideration of vitamin K and prothrombin determinations the perfect day to perform a circumcision is the eighth day . . . [the] day picked by the Creator of vitamin K."—None of These Diseases, 1986, p. 21

[bananabrain]

mee - if we relied upon rational or scientific reasons to do things, then if these reasons were disproved, the impetus would disappear. Divine commandment or mitzvah is just that - G!D Commands us to do something, so we do it to fulfil the Will of the Creator. not because it's "scientifically the best day" - otherwise our belief is in science, not in G!D.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[mee]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

mee - if we relied upon rational or scientific reasons to do things, then if these reasons were disproved, the impetus would disappear. Divine commandment or mitzvah is just that - G!D Commands us to do something, so we do it to fulfil the Will of the Creator. not because it's "scientifically the best day" - otherwise our belief is in science, not in G!D.

b'shalom

bananabrain

yes i agree, we do things because God says to do it, i was just making the point that back then when God said the eighth day , he knew that the clotting was better on that day than any other day ,so its always best to follow instructions from God because he knows better than us, back then the people did not know about the clotting being better on the eighth day , and even now humans think that they know better than God and do things their way instead. but for me as a christian , it is my belief that circumcision is nolonger a requirement for Gods people
The "necessary things" for Gentiles and Jews alike did not include circumcision.—Ac 15:6-29

For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you! Acts 15;28-29

[Rouge47]

You know I kinda have the same quetion as Brian. Who the heck did invite the ritual of cutting off a man's penis anyway? I mean its an interesting conversation and all but I'm having trouble understanding it. And dauer mentioned in one of his earlier posts the word "communism." WHAT in the name of God does that have to do with anything? I'm sorry but I'm confused here. Brian why did you have to bring up such an "odd" post? Nice to know that we like to talk about men's penis' here...

[arthra]

My own personal view on circumcision is that it developed in warm climates with little water for cleansing purposes... Smegma secretia is not very pleasant. It was also believed at one time that there were health risks associated with accumulated smegma that could cause penile cancer, but lately this is not been substantiated.

Recently, in a discussion with a public health nurse I had on the subject we were talking about circumcision and she was not recommending it... I asked if she thought it was difficult to convince children to brush their teeth..and she agreed. How much more difficult would it be to convince a child to cleanse their foreskin? I asked... and she was silent.

Where there is plenty of water available I think the practise of circumcision is less common.

- Art

[Tao_Equus]

At last I get all these 'cheesy' jokes about smeghead on red dwarf (a UK sci-fi comedy series).!!!

I tend to agree about the hygene aspects being at the root of the practice and the geography of its practice lends weight to that argument. Seems the case that HIV is transmitted to men through the extremely thin and porous inner wall of the foreskin and circumcision great reduces likelyhood of transmission. Perhaps its time for healthcare systems the world over to see it as a standard practice.

TE

[Rouge47]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

At last I get all these 'cheesy' jokes about smeghead on red dwarf (a UK sci-fi comedy series).!!!

I tend to agree about the hygene aspects being at the root of the practice and the geography of its practice lends weight to that argument. Seems the case that HIV is transmitted to men through the extremely thin and porous inner wall of the foreskin and circumcision great reduces likelyhood of transmission. Perhaps its time for healthcare systems the world over to see it as a standard practice.

TE

So are you saying that, if we cut then we protect? That doesn't make sense. Wouldn't the extra stuff tend to help protect more?

PJ

[wil]

In the US a hospital will pretty much recommend circumcision immediately, unless you have a religious preference, they will provide all the reasons you should do it...and will do it right away...no eight days.

As far as disease goes... the reports of issues with/without have gone by the wayside...anecdotal evidence, part and parcel of our American society.

Removal of the foreskin decreases sexual pleasure for men, therefor hack it off, too many men were focused on sex and not on G-d. So it appears the powers that be, like the creation of the sacred cow, made it holy, required for the benefit of all...

[mee]

"Circumcision" is used figuratively also in the bible

Circumcision of the heart was a divine requirement of even the Israelites who were already circumcised in the flesh. Moses told Israel: "You must circumcise the foreskin of your hearts and not harden your necks any longer." "Jehovah your God will have to circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, that you may love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul for the sake of your life." (De 10:16; 30:6) Jeremiah reminded that wayward nation in his day of the same thing. (Jer 4:4) ‘Circumcision of the heart’ means getting rid of anything in one’s thinking, affections, or motives that is displeasing and unclean in Jehovah’s eyes and that makes the heart unresponsive. Similarly, ears that are not sensitive or responsive are spoken of as "uncircumcised."—Jer 6:10; Ac 7:51

[Rouge47]

Originally Posted by mee

"Circumcision" is used figuratively also in the bible

Circumcision of the heart was a divine requirement of even the Israelites who were already circumcised in the flesh. Moses told Israel: "You must circumcise the foreskin of your hearts and not harden your necks any longer." "Jehovah your God will have to circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, that you may love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul for the sake of your life." (De 10:16; 30:6) Jeremiah reminded that wayward nation in his day of the same thing. (Jer 4:4) ‘Circumcision of the heart’ means getting rid of anything in one’s thinking, affections, or motives that is displeasing and unclean in Jehovah’s eyes and that makes the heart unresponsive. Similarly, ears that are not sensitive or responsive are spoken of as "uncircumcised."—Jer 6:10; Ac 7:51

Don't forget Genesis 12:10 I believe. I may be wrong. My youth director said something about it. Some kind of covenent type thing-a-ma-bob...blablabla...you know God's word, no offense to anyone.