Church: Men Not Allowed!

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I like theories.....they simplify things.

But most importantly, this is not a definition of male/female behaviour/thinking, just a description.

The idea(s) are influenced by many sources, books and articles on the Internet about romance and psychology, everyday conversations, how people talk, what women say about themselves and what they say about us, etc. I can't define masculine and feminine phenomena, but I can describe and perceive it. What I posted was what I thought of it.

You've explored this stuff before have you?

Just a picture and illustration.....an artist's depiction.

Ooohhh, boy! I can see it coming already...

<sigh> Yes, I have explored varying facets of the gender war before. Disguising it by playing to the gender count in a church pew is just a variation on a theme.

This is another one of those fraught discussions that simply cannot proceed unemotionally and logically...it is the nature of the beast, it is impossible.

It is another one of those "have your cake and eat it too" arguments. We're all equal, except when we're not, and there's no way on G-d's green earth for the male of the species to know when it's not equal and when it is until the female of the species says so. And frankly I don't think there are two females of the species who fully agree on the subject, so the goal lines and boundaries are very local, very subjective and very prone to change.

I've been the punching bag enough lately, I've got other things going on, can't somebody else take a turn in the ring for a while??? Please.......guys, c'mon, help me out here???

I just wanna go home and drink a beer and watch the game like any other *normal* guy, instead of putting out fires everywhere I speak about or write a few lines of truth based in observational reality. Invariably somebody takes it wrong and gets hurt feelings and ... ooooooh, it just isn't pretty.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

<sigh> Yes, I have explored varying facets of the gender war before. Disguising it by playing to the gender count in a church pew is just a variation on a theme.

Oh no, I wasn't asking for a war here.

I'm here for an experience.....to connect.....I want to know what people think. Until the others have responded I won't know how they think and feel.

I'm not here to argue a case and win a debate. Why would I want to do that? That is just way too hard. I'd have to prove my case against all the hundreds of people that might be here. That's a formidable task. In the process some angry people might fire off some really angry words and do emotional damage. I'll avoid that.

But I won't avoid engaging and interacting with those in this forum. I'd also like to explain how I think masculinity and femininity work, as opposed to cultural beliefs like "men are strong" and "women are more emotional." If anyone is angry then I will try and clear up misperceptions about what I am doing. I had some ideas and wanted to present them.

I'm not going for a male vs. female debate. Not at all. I'm just wondering how men and women can understand each other better so they can relate and co-operate better. How can men understand their own behaviour better and change the way they think? What do men need? What do women need? Why do men do what they do? What about women?

[Saltmeister]

Here is what some of you were suggesting:

Church for Men – For Men

[Still thinking]

Thanks for your insights, Saltmeister. Methinks you have some background in psychology or medicine. I've never even heard of the grey matter\white matter aspect. Interesting.
I should point out here that I also quit going to church, for different reasons. So I'm not pushing the idea of forcing yourself to go if you don't want to, I'm just saying perhaps it's time for these men to "be the change they want to see". However, I see nothing wrong with holding hands or crying in church; spirituality is a very emotional thing, and it should bring you out of your comfort zone; how else can we be expected to grow? And, for the record, when I first started going to church as a teenager and I saw people crying and holding hands, I was anything but comfortable. But I learned how it's important to let people see your vulnerability, break down the walls we build around ourselves. And it's not necessary to do that in a large group, but it should be done with someone.
And I have no desire to begin a male vs. female debate - that's never a pretty picture! I am, however, sick to death of seeing men shirk their responsibilities to their families and communities; I consider it an epidemic. Perhaps I'm being short-sighted, and society as a whole is becoming lazier and less responsible, but either way it is not good. In other words, I suggest that instead of focusing on how much you as men don't like going to church, look at the bigger picture, and if you don't like something, then change it.

[path_of_one]

I find all this rather interesting, especially when I try to stack it up against personal experience.

My husband grew up being forced to go to church, even though he never enjoyed it. It isn't surprising that once he broke free from feeling guilt-tripped into going, he just didn't want to go anymore. By the theories of cultural conditioning, church should have been a warm, fuzzy, comfortable place for him... but it wasn't.

I propose it isn't a gender issue necessarily, but more broadly incorporates issues of personality and culture.

My husband is not an extravert, and he isn't into being told what to think or do. He likes being given the pieces and left to work them out on his own. He's a "stick to the facts, and leave the interpretation to me" kind of guy. Plus, he's really an outdoorsy and active guy and has back issues, so the prospect of sitting for an hour or two in a wood pew holds little charm. Maybe if they offered couches or recliners...??? LOL

At the end of the day, he just isn't into religion. He's explained to me numerous times that he connects to God through nature and music. Period. And not hymns, but writing his own music. He's an artsy guy. It isn't just that church isn't fun, or that it is touchy-feely, or too feminine for him. It's that he's a creative artist dude and church tends to be... well, not creative. It is not a terribly interactive or artistic place. People talk at/to you, not with you. You sing songs together that were already scripted and there is no room for improvisation.

I go to church sometimes and I go because of my appreciation for communal ritual. I'm as uncomfortable, I'd wager, as any guy with the more touchy-feely churches. I'm introverted and empathic and the roller-coaster of uncomfortable and strong emotion I sense in the bigger, touchy-feely churches where people cry loudly and hold hands and whatnot makes me totally frazzled, overwhelmed, and exhausted. But I like the feeling of communal ritual. It appeals to my sense of symbolism and order. I will put up with short sermons for the good stuff- the ritual of communion, the communal hymn-singing and prayer, kneeling with a few hundred other people before God. But at the end of the day, I'm fiercely independent and would really prefer no sermon at all- just read the Bible, pray as a group, sing, and take communion. And I'm with my husband on pews being really uncomfortable. Can we please have cushions and more back support?

But I admit- I do not go to church to connect to God. I go to feel connected with other people, all worshipping God at once. I am, like my husband, most connected to God when out in the woods or in my art studio. As an introvert, I mostly like to be alone. I connect to God through meditation, through poetry, through painting, through spontaneous dance and song. I connect to religion and tradition through study and discussion. Neither of these facets show up in church. There are too many people there to allow it without becoming overwhelming and chaotic.

I daresay that churches, in general, don't "work" for women who are introverted and non-social any more than they "work" for men. That touchy-feely environment only works for some personalities.