Christians! Do you believe Mohammed's prophethood?

[Prober]

I almost converted to Islam. This was my biggest struggle. I could accept all the other tenets, but I just couldn't get to the point where I believed in his prophethood (not that I disbelieve).

I'm open-minded. There are so many good things about Islam. It's a powerful thing to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with your brothers in prayer. And when they prayed to "remember our brothers in Afganistan, Chechnya and Iraq", it reminded me how God loves all of us NO MATTER WHAT.

It was more natural for me to be a Christian as I was brought up that way. But, the main reason I'm a Christian is because God's love for me is such a powerful thing. And it meshes with the responsibility to love others.

I'll always have a special place in my heart for my Muslim brothers.

[farhan]

1. How many times is Mohammed mentioned in the bible?
2. How many of Mohammed's words are recorded?
3. How many of his prohecies are foretold in the bible?

Answers
1. None.
2. None.
3. None.

So this being the fact, why would christians believe in your prophet?

Muhammad in the Bible

Muhammad in The Bible

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT MOHAMMED (PEACE BE UPON HIM)

MUHAMMAD IN THE BIBLE

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was foretold in the Bible.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by farhan

Muhammad in the Bible

Muhammad in The Bible

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT MOHAMMED (PEACE BE UPON HIM)

MUHAMMAD IN THE BIBLE

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was foretold in the Bible.

On what basis do you feel the quran and the bible is uncorrupted which prophecies Muhammad, but then the bible is corrupted that prophesies the crucifixion of Jesus Christ the Son of God, and makes no mention of the man Muhammad? Seems rather contradictory and prejudicial.

[farhan]

On what basis do you feel the quran and the bible is uncorrupted which prophecies Muhammad, but then the bible is corrupted that prophesies the crucifixion of Jesus Christ the Son of God, and makes no mention of the man Muhammad? Seems rather contradictory and prejudicial

Regarding Quran, I feel its uncorrupted because all of it was dictated by Muhammad to his companians in his life time. Most of it was present in written form; it was recited five times a day each day, & multiple times other than Salah. In the words of Dr.Hamidullah,

"The sources all agree in stating that whenever a fragment of the Quran was revealed, the Prophet called one of his literate companions and dictated it to him, indicating at the same time the exact position of the new fragment in the fabric of what had already been received . . . Descriptions note that Muhammad asked the scribe to reread to him what had been dictated so that he could correct any deficiencies . . . Another famous story tells how every year in the month of Ramadan, the Prophet would recite the whole of the Quran (so far revealed) to Gabriel . . ., that in the Ramadan preceding Muhammad's death, Gabriel had made him recite it twice . . . It is known how since the Prophet's time, Muslims acquired the habit of keeping vigil during Ramadan, and of reciting the whole of the Quran in addition to the usual prayers expected of them. Several sources add that Muhammad's scribe Zaid was present at this final bringing-together of the texts. Elsewhere, numerous other personalities are mentioned as well."

Two years after his death, single volume was present. Later on , an standard version (based on Quraishite dialect) came into existence within 20 years after his death. Copies of this one are present in Istanbul & Samarqand even today, in its original language.

Regarding Bible, part of Torah is supposed to be written by Moses ( although sources disagree ) . Nevi'im contains words of God, words of prophets & words of humans; nobody exactly knows which are spoken by whom. Same is the case with Ketuvium. Gospels were written decades after Jesus, & he didn’t dictate them. It includes the life/teachings of Jesus in Human words. Jesus Christ neither himself wrote or compiled any of the Gospels nor he asked his disciples to do so. It is more like the Sunnah texts in Islam (Although all sunnah text comes with a chain of narrators).We don’t even know who were the actual writers. And there is still no reason why the church selected only 4 gospels out of many. Then we have acts/letters that are obviously no divine work.

Other than the problem of its being or not being from God, another problem is translation. Moses spoke Hebrew, & Jesus Aramaic. We don’t have anything in these languages. And there cant be such thing as “perfect translation”. Muslims witness this problem while reading Quranic translations. There arise dozens of weird problems that can’t be solved without going back to original text. But with bible, there is no original text.

So, nobody exactly knows where God ends & where Man begins. But it still has the words of God & the words of prophets in it. Anything that goes against the teachings of Quran in the bible is not considered by Muslims to be the word of God, because this is the only standard that Muslims have, to differentiate God’s words from human words.

When exactly Jesus became “The only begotten of God”, & when exactly was his crucifixion officialised . See the links below.

Divinity & Trinity
http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-10-1.htm
http://www.sultan.org/articles/pjncd.html
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/son_of_who.asp
http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/middle/christianity/conceptofgod.htm
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/sons_of_god.htm
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=133

How Jesus became God
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/Arianism.asp
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/NicaeaCouncil325.htm

Crucifixion & Resurrection
http://www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm
http://www.jamaat.net/crux/crucifixion.html
http://www.jamaat.net/resurr/Resurrect.htm
http://www.jamaat.net/stone/TheStone.html
http://www.jamaat.net/jonah/signofjonah.html
http://www.jamaat.net/gtnw/god.html
http://www.al-sunnah.com/truth.htm

True message of Jesus Christ
THE TRUE MESSAG OF JESUS CHRIST
Muhammed, The Natural Successor To Christ --- By Ahmed Deedat

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by farhan

Muhammad in the Bible

Muhammad in The Bible

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT MOHAMMED (PEACE BE UPON HIM)

MUHAMMAD IN THE BIBLE

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was foretold in the Bible.

*chuckles....*

[BlaznFattyz]

my argument would be many witnesses over periods of time rather than dictation from one within a lifetime.

if the bible has prophecies hundreds of years before christ, witnesses during christ, and apostles after christ all saying the same thing that the Lord that proceeds from the Lord will be our salvation through his resurrection. For all these people over this period of time to all say the same thing, to have interwoven scripture is remarkable and is a testament to the power of god and his plan to reconcile man.

then to have one person adopt some of what was already said, add and subtract from it, inject cultural embellishments into it, ignore the words of prophets and the words of jesus christ but center it all around one voice, change it, is called straying away from the source. because islam adopts some of what was already given to gods people the jews of the old covenant and then to everyone of the new covenant sure there are going to be some good things borrowed into islam and that is a good start if that is all you have ever known. then all one has to do is weed out what is just man made cultural doctrine that men insert to justify their behaviour and lifestyle, and what are righteous words of god. but you would probably find out, once that is done, you are left with the holy bible.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by farhan

Gospels were written decades after Jesus, & he didn’t dictate them. It includes the life/teachings of Jesus in Human words. Jesus Christ neither himself wrote or compiled any of the Gospels nor he asked his disciples to do so. It is more like the Sunnah texts in Islam (Although all sunnah text comes with a chain of narrators).We don’t even know who were the actual writers. And there is still no reason why the church selected only 4 gospels out of many. Then we have acts/letters that are obviously no divine work.

What exactly is the problem with human speculation?

God created us. The minds we have were created by God. The ability to discover God, discover what He wants for us, to establish a personal and intimate connection with God, would be a great achievement on the part of God. In other words, the Ideal, Supreme God, could, in theory, be one that doesn't need a perfectly written text to convey His intentions to us. Why not just let us figure it out for ourselves? Do you not think that such a God would be greater than one who has to deploy a perfectly written Text to us, one without error?

My view is that the Bible was a result of God initiating a process of discovery and exploration of the concept and story of God and humanity. Even if God didn't write the Bible, God can still take credit for creating beings (us) that could write the Bible and use it as a stepping stone in the process of discovering Him. Even if the work wasn't perfect, it could, still lead us to God.

In that sense, you could say that the device/instrument/system deployed was not the Bible or Quran but our minds. The Bible was something ordained as the work that resulted from our discovery and exploration of concepts about God and humanity. Our minds were the systems deployed for the purpose of discovering God, the work of writing and studying Bible was the work ordained for us. Do you see my point? In this alternate perception of reality, I am saying that God didn't deploy a perfectly written Text, but instead invited us to discover who He was. He allowed us to use whatever space and time that was available us, a part of which was used to write the Bible.

To me, a relationship with God is far more important than determining correct scientific, medical or social practices. Understanding God is about understanding people. Understanding ourselves. The Bible's focus is on human relationships and interactions, not the way we organise the world in which we live. The attitudes, emotions, interactions and expressions of sentient beings take precedence over the way the world is organised. My point is sentimental harmony, sentimental values and personal dignity over utilitarian efficiency. The Bible isn't so much concerned about utilitarian efficiency/proficiency as it is about the personal dignity as people. It's to do with the human need to be known, valued, appreciated and understood.

The idea of a perfectly written Text has to do with the idea of utilitarian proficiency -- "perfection" in the systematic sense of a Text ordained by God having no faults anywhere in its context. But not all the things in a written Text have value to everyone at the same time and place, and it's different from person to person. The minds God has given us allow us to filter out unimportant details. Some "faults" are unimportant. If you endorse the view that everything in a written Text ordained by God must be "perfect without flaw," then you're treating human beings like machines!!! In other words, human beings are like coin-operated machines and the words in the Bible/Quran are like coins. The wrong coin may destroy the machine!!!

But human beings aren't machines!!! We think. We evaluate. We judge. We decide. Our minds filter out irrelevant details in order to work out the true meaning of a passage in the Bible/Quran. Good communication requires that we get the most important details out first, because the receiver/listener/reader's thinking is influenced by what we convey as important. In the New Testament, Paul explains what love means in 1 Corinthians 13. Love is considered to be important, and considering that it's important, why not explain it? But what does the Quran say about love? Does the Quran explain love? Is love explained and expressed through rules and regulations or through words that conceptualise our thoughts directly as in 1 Corinthians 13?

True, one Text may have errors, but the Text that is perfect but doesn't address important issues or explain important concepts is no better.

A perfect and incorrupt text has only utilitarian value -- this treats human beings like machines that are operated by coins -- machines that can't tell the difference between good coins and bad coins -- machines that can't evaluate and judge what you give to them. A Text that addresses important concepts like love and having the right attitude has sentimental value. There is room to explain more because human existence presents a vast world of possibilities. But then again, important concepts must be addressed. The New Testament may be relatively short, but still rich in meaning.

To me, the Bible has sentimental value because it focuses on human relationships, human sentiment and human interactions.

Utilitarian value or sentimental value -- which do you prefer?

I prefer a Text that explains and conveys concepts with sentimental value. I don't consider myself to be a coin-operated machine that can't evaluate and judge the coins I am receiving.

Do I believe in Mohammed's prophethood? That depends. Does the Quran explain important concepts? If so, does it deal with them appropriately? Does it conceptualise our thoughts and feelings directly as Paul did in 1 Corinthians 13?