Christians! Do you believe Mohammed's prophethood?

[Faithfulservant]

1 The Father
1 The Son, Jesus Christ = God
1 The Holy Spirit

The Father is He who noone has ever seen nor heard.. He sits on the throne doing God stuff...He is perfect and incapable of being around sin. Which means He is incapable of being around us... (thats where Jesus came in). He is the supreme authority in heaven. :P

The Son, Jesus Christ... came to Earth as a Man so He could do The Fathers business on Earth.. and one day will rule over the Earth. He is fully Man and fully God.. He is the manifestation of God in the flesh.

The Spirit is a person that is the manifestation of the Power of God.. The acting force.. the one that Jesus left behind to help us. The one that makes it possible for us to communicate with God through prayer and bible study.

those 3 equal God.

The Father desires a personal relationship with us and desires for us to have a relationship with Him...

Jesus was sent to earth pay the price for our sins that is needed in order to be perfect to be with The Father who is perfect and unable to be around sin..

The Spirit is the spiritual link between our souls and The Father who is a spirit being...He is the force which allows God to communicate with us. We cannot talk to The Father or see the Father directly.. think of Jesus as the phone and The Spirit as the phone lines. Each create the link that we need to The Father in order to have a relationship with Him.

Please pardon my analogy its the only thing I can think of to explain it

If a bible is published that contradicts the original Bible which the closest English translation is the Kings James Version.. It is not considered infalliable as the Word of God. It has been added to or taken from and I could list examples but choose not to. The Bible was written by The Spirit (God) through the men that penned the words... It does not contradict itself. Other versions I do not believe are inspired by God because it contradicts the original version of the Bible which was translated directly from hebrew aramaic and greek.

[Bi Dhikri Allah]

Hi everyone! Thank you again for your very detailed and eloquent response.

However that raises more questions..If God is Jesus and Jesus is God and God can't be around sin...then why and how would Jesus be God? If Jesus is the flesh of God, yet God is the Father in heaven who can't be around sin, how could He be around sin if He Himself IS GOD? Do you see why I am so confused?
Also, if the father is God and God desires a personal relationship with Him, then why would the Holy Spirit be needed to communicate with Him? If the Holy Spirit IS God, then how could God be a form of communication with Himself and humans?

Please take no offense, I am only trying to iron out the doubts in my head and I know you wouldn't hesitate to try to explain this again. Think of me as a potential convert

As for the Bibles, who decides which are divinely inspired and which are false?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Please pardon my analogy its the only thing I can think of to explain it

LOL
oh boy , here we go again

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Bi Dhikri Allah

As for the Bibles, who decides which are divinely inspired and which are false?

you decide for yourself which one you want to believe in

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Bi Dhikri Allah

Hi everyone! Thank you again for your very detailed and eloquent response.

However that raises more questions..If God is Jesus and Jesus is God and God can't be around sin...then why and how would Jesus be God? If Jesus is the flesh of God, yet God is the Father in heaven who can't be around sin, how could He be around sin if He Himself IS GOD? Do you see why I am so confused?
Also, if the father is God and God desires a personal relationship with Him, then why would the Holy Spirit be needed to communicate with Him? If the Holy Spirit IS God, then how could God be a form of communication with Himself and humans?

Please take no offense, I am only trying to iron out the doubts in my head and I know you wouldn't hesitate to try to explain this again. Think of me as a potential convert

As for the Bibles, who decides which are divinely inspired and which are false?

You are not understanding the difference between The Father and the GODhead... The Father cannot be around Sin HE IS GOD... Jesus CAN because HE is MAN and GOD. You are trying to force Jesus into what Allah is to you.. We would consider The Father, Our Father in heaven.. Jesus is the Son of The Father in Heaven..The ONLY begotten Son of The Father.. who is God in the flesh. You are limiting God to your own understanding... Try to think outside of the box.

The Father is one part of God.. Elohim.. Jesus is one part of God... Elohim... The Spirit is one part of God...Elohim. The three are God.

Let me use how I pray as an example..

Heavenly Father.. Lord I ask that you use me to your will.. I ask that you help me to make understood the glorious mystery of your Godhead.. There are many that do not understand and may seek to understand. I ask that the Spirit speak through me and speak to those that desire to understand you.

In Jesus's name... Amen

I pray to the Father in Jesus's name because HE is the mediator between myself and God.. Jesus makes it possible to be heard by the Father because I am unworthy of His personal attention because of Sin.... The Spirit is what connects my soul to The Father who is Spirit. They all three work as One. They have the same goal.. a personal relationship with us.

God didnt need us.. God created us to need HIM.

Try to think of it this way... God is omniscent.. He can be anywhere at anytime.. How could He do that If He is sitting on a throne in heaven? He could if He allowed Himself to become flesh to dwell AMONGST us.. Then when He had to leave to prepare a place for us.. He left His Spirit to dwell WITHIN us.

[Faithfulservant]

The Holy Spirit decides which bible is correct. I just listen to what He tells me. I know when something is wrong because I have learned to listen. Prayer is not only speaking to God.. Its learning how to listen...

[Bi Dhikri Allah]

I guess this is where I have to end the conversation on my part. Since you brought in the name of Allah, I shall continue with that. I wasn't going to bring in Islam because I didn't want a debate- but anyways: When you say I am limiting God, I think exactly the opposite-that you are. My beliefs are very simple-Allah created all objects, ideas, and creatures. He also created sin. I don't think that God needs to be in human form when He is omniscient and can do whatever He wants. We can't say He had a Son-to us that is limiting His whole concept of being GOD. To have a Son is a human aspect of life. God created life. God created ALL...

I agree completely, you have to learn how to listen to God when you pray as well as when you ask Him for things. However, there doesn't seem to be common ground amongst Christians if they all believe they were inspired by the Holy Spirit...who was really inspired? Who wasn't? Who decides? For us, we have the Quran and everyone's Quran in arabic is the same no matter how you translate it in english. If anyone comes out with a new version, or claims that they were inspired to change the Quran, it wouldn't be accepted.

Thank you anyways. I was hoping that Christians believed in something like God is three functions in one-like a woman can be a mother, a wife and a woman at the same time but still have the same form and can still be seen as one form only. Only her functions would be different depending on circumstances. While I still would need further convincing on that concept, it would be easier to ascribe those aspects to the concept of the one and ONLY God. What you say however is that God actually has three distinct forms-of which I just cannot accept. Anyways, in Islam, and i will reiterate- we still believe that Allah is the ONLY creator in ONE form only because He doesn't need to be anything like His creation ever. He doesn't need sleep, rest, etc. He is GoD and created all those ideas-or else someone else had to have created them etc etc and that would have to be GOD.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Bi Dhikri Allah

For us, we have the Quran and everyone's Quran in arabic is the same no matter how you translate it in english. If anyone comes out with a new version, or claims that they were inspired to change the Quran, it wouldn't be accepted.

Indeed, but then we have the converse argument about the choice of suras for the Qur'an. Oh, I know the tradition is pretty set - but then again, before the Reformation, there was general acceptance of the Roman Catholic determinism of what was and was not inspired as well. But that's all for another thread.

[Bi Dhikri Allah]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Indeed, but then we have the converse argument about the choice of suras for the Qur'an. Oh, I know the tradition is pretty set - but then again, before the Reformation, there was general acceptance of the Roman Catholic determinism of what was and was not inspired as well. But that's all for another thread.

Hi Brian,

Could you please elaborate on what you mean by choice of surahs? And can you please, if you can, cite someplace where you read or heard that there was "choice of surahs" in those exact terms.
But let me go ahead and tell you what is fact: No one but GOD revealed these words in arabic and it is repeatedly proven to be the word of GOD through logic and common sense. There are zero contradictions in any of the Qurans from anywhere throughout all of time since it was first recorded. Not even one marking has been changed (only those that assist in pronounciation have been added in the arabic to help nonnative speakers-like me ). We don't deny it because God is capable of all things and surely He is capable of this.
Throughout the entire book, Allah challenges man to produce even one chapter exactly like it in form, aesthetic quality, logic, and porportion. Surahs were put in different orders but that doesn't mean they were changed. Please read the Quran and pick out something that seems contradicting to you and ask a knowledgeable Muslim or go to the Mosque and ask about it.
Could I do that with the Bible? I asked just a few questions at first and already someone was cautioning me to "tread carefully". As Muslims, we welcome debates in polite manners. So please do come forth with them with the INTENT of gaining knowledge ( on the islam forum, that is)!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by PersonaNonGrata

they can not come straight forward if one can not fulfill your desires? therefore i wont, and your thoughts stay on you...

however if interested may visit
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/pr...ons_index.html

Muhammed says he didnt write the Quaran by the way so when you say 'did Muhammed make' that sounds irreconcilable

You asked if Christians believe Mohammed's prophetichood...then you refuse to answer, or justify?

That was a cop out. If Muhammed didn't write the Quaran, then how would he be any kind of prophet...to anyone? Did someone else write about Muhammed and his prophecies?

It was a simple question. Did Muhammed prophecy, and if so, did his prophetic numerations fulfill God/Allah's will? Yes, or no?

The answer is Muhammed is not a prophet. Unless, you my friend, can prove me wrong. Great man. Wise man...yes. Godly man...yes. Prophet? Show me.

v/r

Q

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Bi Dhikri Allah

Thank you anyways. I was hoping that Christians believed in something like God is three functions in one-like a woman can be a mother, a wife and a woman at the same time but still have the same form and can still be seen as one form only. Only her functions would be different depending on circumstances. While I still would need further convincing on that concept, it would be easier to ascribe those aspects to the concept of the one and ONLY God. What you say however is that God actually has three distinct forms-of which I just cannot accept. Anyways, in Islam, and i will reiterate- we still believe that Allah is the ONLY creator in ONE form only because He doesn't need to be anything like His creation ever. He doesn't need sleep, rest, etc. He is GoD and created all those ideas-or else someone else had to have created them etc etc and that would have to be GOD.

Some Christians agree more with this concept rather than God as three distinct persons. Some Christians don't believe in the trinity at all, though it's a bit rare to find them in the more mainstream denonminations. What follows is my take on this as a follower of Christ, which is different from Faithful Servant's concepts of the trinity. I'm not saying the former conceptualization is wrong, in fact, it is one held by many Christians. I'm just saying we don't all think of God in the same way.

The trinity, for me, is a human attempt to express the mystery of God. People experience God and come up with some ideas about Him, and in most versions of Christianity, these ideas are summarized in the concept of the trinity. I believe the trinity is a human attempt to express the collective experience of the various aspects of God. By that, I mean that God is Infinite and we are finite. Furthermore, God knows each of us intimately and knows what we need spiritually, and also what our spirits and minds are prepared to experience of Him. Then layer the personality differences, cultural baggage and whatnot on top of that, and you wind up with people experiencing God in different ways. Here's a summary of my experience of the trinity, and yet unity, of God. (By the way, I say "Him" to refer to God as a personal Being, not as a literal male entity. Gender is a cultural construct and I believe God is genderless, and also sexless, since sex is a biological and not spiritual attribute.)

The Father- in my experience, this points to the closest approximation of what you probably experience as Allah. This is the very unhuman and mysterious Force and Being that is God. For me, my clearest vision of this was as a child, when I felt surrounded by a great Light that was sentient. This aspect of God of is tremendously powerful, and loving, but not in a human way. The love to me felt like a constant watchfulness. In the moment of being embraced by this Force, I felt what infinity and eternity was like, though my child's mind didn't have the words to describe it. God is always mysterious, but it is this experience of God that showe me that God is a Great Mystery. I will never comprehend Him, nor can I hope to express what glimpses I've had of Him in any way that truly gets at this Mystery and Glory. I would say this is the transcendent aspect of the God experience- God as Mysterious Being and as Powerful Force. This is the creator God, completely non-human and foreign to us. I do not, however, agree with FS that one can't experience this aspect of God, or stand in His presence. I believe He is completely omnipotent and can do whatever He likes. I do not think sin separates us metaphysically from Him. I think, indeed, He is with us always and that when we stand before Him our sins are all revealed, even those we never thought about. I just also think He is just, and that justice does not demand perfection, but rather effort. So why the Son? I'll get to that in a moment...

The Spirit- in my experience, the Spirit is the connective Force of all Creation, and the immanent unifying Force between God and ourselves. When I experience the Spirit, I see the immanent divinity in all things created by God. I see the divine spark in each of the creatures that He breathed life into, I see It in the very earth that is also alive. And I see It in myself. I can be still, and listen to that deeper self that guides me to God, that is not of this world. It is the Force that causes me to love and have compassion, that makes me want to live in harmony with all the peoples and creatures of the earth. It is the capacity to hear all the earth sing for the glory of God. It is divine inspiration, the gift of inner knowing. It manifests Itself as the "fruits of the Spirit," love, patience, gentleness, self-control, etc. I would say this is the immanent aspect of God- God as Process. It is the aspect of God that is unifying all creation, and is living in each of us.

The Son- in my experience, Jesus Christ was a manifestation of God. Though human, He was divine in purpose. He chose of free will to pour out His desires and will for God's, and thus God dwelled in Him. Jesus Christ shows us God's personal love for each of us, and how we should relate to God and each other. Jesus sacrificed all His own wants and needs for the work of God, and showed us the highest potential of humanity. Jesus showed us that though we may not attain perfection as He did, we can all strive toward His holy example, becoming ever more God-centered and other-centered, and letting go of our attachments to the things of this world in order to prepare ourselves to come before God as spiritual beings. He showed us that when God dwells inside one, the way we relate to one another changes. We begin to embody the perfect love of God, a joy in life, a sense of purpose, a commitment to peace. I believe Jesus Christ was not the entirety of God, but rather giving us a glimpse of God as a personal, loving Being, one that people could relate to and find comfort in. Everyone is born with a different personality, and many people have a hard time relating to the Mystery that is God. People suffer, they are lonely, they are in pain. And by sending Jesus Christ, God showed us His ultimate love for us- that He did not expect us to do what He would not. That He did not want us to feel separated from Him, even if He was mysterious. Jesus Christ heals the self-imposed breech between people and God by showing that there is no necessary separation. God and humanity as one. Humanity at peace with itself. And all good action flowing from this path, all spiritual healing, all unity.

I've experienced all three. I feel that all three are a best attempt to express what is inexpressible. I also believe in what lunamoth described as "radical grace." I believe those that seek God and put forth the effort to pour out themselves for His will, will be in His Presence. No matter if they cry out to Jesus, or pray to Allah, meditate on emptiness, or as many indigenous people, celebrate life and the spirits therein. I prefer not to limit God, and acknowledge that my little self cannot fully comprehend the mystery of Him and all that He has inspired in humanity through the ages.

When I conceptualize God, the phrase that has long come to mind is Divine One. But I do not feel it is wrong to acknowledge the glimpses I've had. I don't follow any set routine in my prayer structure. Mostly I just pray to "God." Sometimes, if I'm feeling formal, I pray to the "Divine One," the one I know as "Father, Son, and Spirit." If I'm feeling in need of a friend or comforter, I often will talk to Jesus. If I'm asking for inspiration or guidance, I frequently call to the Spirit. And I thank the Creator for my food, house, and all nature. But mostly I just pray to God. I think in all cases, the Divine One hears my cry.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Bi Dhikri Allah

...
Thank you anyways. I was hoping that Christians believed in something like God is three functions in one-like a woman can be a mother, a wife and a woman at the same time but still have the same form and can still be seen as one form only. Only her functions would be different depending on circumstances. While I still would need further convincing on that concept, it would be easier to ascribe those aspects to the concept of the one and ONLY God. What you say however is that God actually has three distinct forms-of which I just cannot accept. Anyways, in Islam, and i will reiterate- we still believe that Allah is the ONLY creator in ONE form only because He doesn't need to be anything like His creation ever. He doesn't need sleep, rest, etc. He is GoD and created all those ideas-or else someone else had to have created them etc etc and that would have to be GOD.

Some of us try not to put God in a "box" at all. God can be anything God wants to be...with or without our permission.

If God wants to manifest self as three personas, or as one persona, who are we to argue? If God reveals self one way to one person and another way to another person...who are we to argue?

I find it ironic that Christians want the Son version of God, wherein the Muslim want's the Father version of God, and mystics want the Spirit of God...but we all want GOD.

Just a thought.

v/r

Q

[lunamoth]

I agree with path of one that the "best explanation" of the Trinity is experiential. I have had indirect experience of the Father and the Son through reading the Bible and through prayer, but I have direct experience of the Spirit as manifested by the fruits of the Spirit and what some people call "confirmations," times when the feeling of guidance or just plain love is powerfully felt. However, the understanding of the Trinity is not a matter for the head, or the intellect; t is a matter of the heart. I don't understand it, but I believe it.

As a Mystery, the Trinity can serve as a "thin place," meditation that during prayer, or sometimes even like a lighting bolt of sudden inspiration, can part the veil between our material lives and our true, spiritual existence.

“No sooner do I conceive of the One than I am illumined by the splendor of the Three; no sooner do I distinguish them than I am carried back to the One. . . When I contemplate the Three together, I see but one torch, and cannot divide or measure out the undivided light.”

- St. Gregory Nazianzen

Having said all of the above, this is why I accept the Trinity, but I in no way excuse the bloodshed that has taken place over the centuries "defending" this concept. I am also saddened that even today the concept is more often used as a barrier between people than as an expression of the Love God has for us and wants us to have for each other.

I'm not sure if you are interested in a more academic explanation of the Trinity, but one can be found here:

http://www.stjohnadulted.org/The_02.htm

And I quote an excerpt from that page below.

The Problem of the Trinity

1.1. The Doctrine of the Trinity as Stated in the Nicene Creed

St. Augustine restated the doctrine of the Trinity as we profess it in the Nicene Creed in 7 statements: (from: On Christian Doctrine):

1. The Father is God
2. The Son is God
3. The Holy Spirit is God
4. The Father is not the Son
5. The Son is not the Holy Spirit
6. The Holy Spirit is not the Father
7. There is only one God

1.2. The Problem for the Rational Mind

The problem for the rational mind:

The numbers do not add up: three individual beings are named as God but they do not add up to three Gods, but rather to One God:

3 = 1, 1 = 3

Summary

The doctrine of the Trinity is:

ultimately irrational: “beyond rational understanding,” a “mystery”

something revealed to us by God, not demonstrated to us by our own reason

something in which, in the end, our "argumentation and analysis must give place to wordless prayer, 'Let all mortal flesh keep silent, and stand with fear and trembling.'" (Bishop Kallistos Ware)

2. Approaching the Mystery of "One in Three" and "Three in One"

Two concepts useful in trying to approach the mystery of "one in three" and "three in one:"

1. Perichoresis

2. Appropriation

2.1. Perichoresis

2.1.1. A Community of Being, Mutually Interpenetrating

Perichoresis (Greek) = circumincessio (Latin) = “mutual interpenetration:” the way the persons of the Trinity relate to each other

Describes “a community of being:” each person, maintaining a distinctive identity, “penetrates” the others and is penetrated by them, to the point that they have one will.

2.1.2. Sharing an "I-You" Relationship

“I-You” relationship (Martin Buber):

The “You” can never be objectified, or “boxed” into our understanding. The “You” has no borders, cannot be measured or “turned into content.” The “You” “fills the sky” of our mind's eye. The “You” is a Presence, is Presence as power.

An encounter, a transitory event (the “event of relation”) which is mutual and reciprocal

Can be called love

Comes to us by grace


The “mutual interpenetration” of the three persons of the Trinity should be thought of as involving a continuous (rather than a transitory) “I – You” relationship of each person of the Trinity with the other persons

2.2. Appropriation

All three persons of the Trinity are involved in every action of God.

Nonetheless, it is appropriate to think of some actions as distinctive actions of one person of the Trinity. For example:

creation as the work of the Father

redemption as the work of the Son

Peace,
lunamoth

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Some of us try not to put God in a "box" at all. God can be anything God wants to be...with or without our permission.

If God wants to manifest self as three personas, or as one persona, who are we to argue? If God reveals self one way to one person and another way to another person...who are we to argue?

Yep. Pretty much my take on it. Thanks Q.

And thanks, lunamoth, for the information. Very interesting- I like the idea of the trinity being a "thin place," kind of like a koan for Christians.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Bi Dhikri Allah

Could you please elaborate on what you mean by choice of surahs? And can you please, if you can, cite someplace where you read or heard that there was "choice of surahs" in those exact terms.
But let me go ahead and tell you what is fact: No one but GOD revealed these words in arabic and it is repeatedly proven to be the word of GOD through logic and common sense.

My point exactly.

Christianity has its own "holy tradition" of how "the spirit of God" settled upon the the choice of the New Testament works. And Islam has its own.

I am merely indicating that criticising of the one form can also appear as the pot calling the kettle black.

Perhaps in another thread, though, if you wished to explore it?