Christians converting to Islam and Judaism

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Dondi

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."" (John 4:23-24)

"...For the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." (1 Samuel 16:7)

"...for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)

These passages tell me what kind of person God is looking for. Despite differences in dogma and doctrine, I believe that there are many people in most religions that God sees are true worshippers. There are many in these religions that are not, even in Christian circles. You can pray, take part in rituals, get baptized or ritually cleansed, partake in religious feasts, walk through fiery coals, whatever...but it is nothing if you heart isn't in it. God is looking to see who is REAL and who is not.

SPIRIT & IN TRUTH!

MUST believe that He is & diligently seek Him.
i believe that, but not everyone does.

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Bandit

to the point of 6 billion different beliefs in the world? that sounds more like confusion & rebellion to me than unity. God is not the author of confusion that way. so all this seeking God here & there & whatever way is convenient does not sound right to me at all.

there most definately is a disillusion in Chritsian'ity' but the bible & Jesus did not cause that. PEOPLE cause that.

there is confusion & dilusion in all religions.

Yes, there is. Maybe that is why people step away into something different in the first place. But those who are strong in Christ never lose that teaching. Some people never physically visit other places. It doesn't mean that traveling is bad. Those who seek to understand other religions are a traveler in that sort. If you strongly believe that there is only one God, it is impossible to betray Him by understanding how others praise Him. And when you are looking for a spiritual place to belong, solidarity means a lot to alot of people. The ultimate decision lies with you and not any form of doctrine or instruction manual. If you remember, as you continue to read the bible, some things are becoming more and more clear to you as you live and experience life. But for other cultures, another story is being told. It is probably the same story, but on another level of understanding to fit the stage of living. Just as no one living knows what it is to be dead and no one in the flesh truly knows what it is to live purely in the spirit. We are all looking for something. Let Jesus be your guide but don't blast somebody whose life is different from your understanding of what life is.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i also want to point out there is a severe lack of love in ALL religions & the people in them.

i also want to point out there are hypocrites in ALL religions.

so dont EVEN try to blame all this on Christians & especially on Jesus or the scriptures.

wil falling, 'who stole my cloud'

ouch, I missed the blaming part...I read no one can blame someone for seeking solace elsewhere. And the way I read it that is why people move from any thought or practice to another. could be toward Christianity my brother.

6 billion, if that is not hyperbole than five and a half billion of those belief systems would be from and of us Christians.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i also want to point out there is a severe lack of love in ALL religions & the people in them.

i also want to point out there are hypocrites in ALL religions.

so dont EVEN try to blame all this on Christians & especially on Jesus or the scriptures.

I totally agree. That lack of Love is due to a lack of the Source of Love.

And hypocrites are not true worshippers, either, whatever religion they some from.

No one is bashing Christians or Jesus here. But I think you and I will be surprised to see who makes it into the kingdom of heaven.

I fail to see why you are on the offensive here. Doesn't God love everyone, even if that love isn't reciprocated? But we put ourselves into hell by not seeking the One who can make us right. Instead, we seek the very things that will kill our spirit. That is my whole point and the point of the message found in all these religions.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Yes, that's it! There are 6 billion beliefs in the world. God is not going to judge us according to our affiliation. We are going to stand alone before Him and account for our life. And He is not going to judge us on our ignorance, but on our heart. Did we do what was right? Did we treat our neighbor as our self? Have we done what we can to serve and help each other? Did we seek God or the Absolute with our heart?

In the end there will be no confusion about who is truly His.

certainly. i know there will be more than just Christians in the resurrection- THEN.

but excuse me, right now...
God is not the author of confusion or division, so something still aint right.

[Rom 15:4] For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
[Rom 15:5] Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
[Rom 15:6] That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[2 Cor 13:11] Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

[Phil 1:27] Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

[Phil 2:2] Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

[1 Pet 3:8] Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:


i do not see one mind in all these religions nor do i see one mouth or one love. we might be working toward that same goal here at CR & in some individual churches, but in the real world it is a different picture. either Jesus is who & what the scriptures say He is, or he is not & people are seeking something different & they do not realize that.

bottom line- someone, somewhere told a lie.

[Dondi]

You don't even see this one mind in Christian circles. Nor amongst the brotherhood of other religions. And that is unfortunate.

As far as lies, maybe in some cases. But even in your own signature line you have: "He looked beyond my fault and saw my need."

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I totally agree. That lack of Love is due to a lack of the Source of Love.

And hypocrites are not true worshippers, either, whatever religion they some from.

No one is bashing Christians or Jesus here. But I think you and I will be surprised to see who makes it into the kingdom of heaven.

I fail to see why you are on the offensive here. Doesn't God love everyone, even if that love isn't reciprocated? But we put ourselves into hell by not seeking the One who can make us right. Instead, we seek the very things that will kill our spirit. That is my whole point and the point of the message found in all these religions.

we agree on the first part.

the reason i seem defensive (though this is like a waste of my time it seems) is because it gets old logging in & seeing a bunch of my beliefs being shot down like they mean nothing with no respect and that goes for JESUS CHRIST & the blood & the Love that was shed on Calvary as the only way we could have eternal life. it is not my fault people choose not to believe that or even TRY to understand it, just because they dont like it or follow some other religious leader.

so people want to try & enter a different way. if this was all the same like you want to suggest, then people would not have such a problem with Jesus & Calvary. ah but the fact is, people DO have a problem with the gospel & blood of of Christ & they have a problem with people who believe in Jesus that way.

do you see me go after the muslims & jews?
do you see me go after the hindus & new agers for their beliefs?
no you do not!

[wil]

I totally agree. That lack of Love is due to a lack of the Source of Love

I disagree, no lack from source...simply man denying source and deciding, choosing not to act as a conduit for same.

i do not see one mind in all these religions nor do i see one mouth or one love. we might be working toward that same goal here at CR & in some individual churches, but in the real world it is a different picture. either Jesus is who & what the scriptures say He is, or he is not & people are seeking something different & they do not realize that.

yes perception is a tricky thing. The Dalai Lama says, you will know you are enlightened when everyone you see, you see as enlightened. The more I see of the world the more I am amazed at the good nature, compassion and love of people in general. I've hitchiked coast to coast in the US more times than I can remember. Not one person had a reason to pick me up, and they all had hundreds of reasons not to, yet they did, they brought me to their homes, they fed me and gave me a place ot sleep.

the reason i seem defensive (though this is like a waste of my time it seems) is because it gets old logging in & seeing a bunch of my beliefs being shot down like they mean nothing with no respect and that goes for JESUS CHRIST & the blood & the Love that was shed on Calvary as the only way we could have eternal life. it is not my fault people choose not to believe that or even TRY to understand it, just because they dont like it or follow some other religious leader.

come on my brother, don't you see how this is entirely disrespectful to the 70% of the world that doesn't believe in Jesus, or the 99% of the world that doesn't believe just like you? How can you demand respect when you don't give it.

We are on this planet together, seek first to understand then to be undersood-covey and I always have to remind myself all of this is about us, me. It is upto me to grow to understand the rest of you, not upto the rest of you to change.

The world is a wonderful place, do we have issues, yeah...but it isn't done yet, the bible is full of people having issues, and working them out, in a variety of ways...nothing changed here. And true, the mob mentality created by some groups, organizations, places of worship, countries...etc does not always seem divine, but we either think that G-d is involved in all or we don't...and again, it is all a work in progress. I don't think there is anything unique about CR, people have open discusssions everywhere...it is just in venues like this we can see it from everywhere...

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by wil

come on my brother, don't you see how this is entirely disrespectful to the 70% of the world that doesn't believe in Jesus, or the 99% of the world that doesn't believe just like you? How can you demand respect when you don't give it.

in other words Jesus & the bible is disrespectful? is that what you are saying?

i give 100% respect to others, & there are others here who do as well who do not see things the same way.
i have time & time again made a stand for just about every religion & individuals represented here as their right, & so have others, even when i do not agree with everything.
so dont tell me i dont respect others AND show respect to others for their beliefs.

i believe in Jesus & the bible. if people have a problem with that, then it is their problem.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Bandit

in other words Jesus & the bible is disrespectful? is that what you are saying?...i give 100% respect to others,

No your believing that is not disrespectful.

JESUS CHRIST & the blood & the Love that was shed on Calvary as the only way we could have eternal life. it is not my fault people choose not to believe that or even TRY to understand it, just because they dont like it or follow some other religious leader.

however demanding that others believe as you (or I) do I think is disrespectful. Are you not out and out saying in the above quote that all other belief systems are wrong and everyone should try to understand you and yours?

i believe in Jesus & the bible. if people have a problem with that, then it is their problem.

I don't think most people have issues with you or me or anyone else believing that, it is when we knock on their door, push our feelings in their face, tell others they are going to hell...that is when issues arise.

I'm saying when you say anything is the ONLY WAY...that is disrespectful and causes others to get on the defensive and strike back at your beliefs despite your line of thinking that

do you see me go after the muslims & jews?
do you see me go after the hindus & new agers for their beliefs?
no you do not!

can I jump back on the cloud yet?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by wil

No your believing that is not disrespectful. however demanding that others believe as you (or I) do I think is disrespectful. Are you not out and out saying in the above quote that all other belief systems are wrong and everyone should try to understand you and yours? I don't think most people have issues with you or me or anyone else believing that, it is when we knock on their door, push our feelings in their face, tell others they are going to hell...that is when issues arise.

I'm saying when you say anything is the ONLY WAY...that is disrespectful and causes others to get on the defensive and strike back at your beliefs despite your line of thinking that can I jump back on the cloud yet?

do you see me demanding others to believe what i believe, Wil? do you?
no you do not.

i try to understand what others believe & have been very successful doing that & it is very easy to do.

Jesus said, (remember Jesus said this not me)

Jesus said He is the way, the truth & the life & no man comes to the father but by him. it is written (of course this goes just for those who believe in Jesus & the bible) 'to attempt to enter any other way is as a thief & a robber.'

if you have an issue with that, then take it up with Jesus, instead of me.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Bandit

we agree on the first part.

the reason i seem defensive (though this is like a waste of my time it seems) is because it gets old logging in & seeing a bunch of my beliefs being shot down like they mean nothing with no respect and that goes for JESUS CHRIST & the blood & the Love that was shed on Calvary as the only way we could have eternal life. it is not my fault people choose not to believe that or even TRY to understand it, just because they dont like it or follow some other religious leader.

so people want to try & enter a different way. if this was all the same like you want to suggest, then people would not have such a problem with Jesus & Calvary. ah but the fact is, people DO have a problem with the gospel & blood of of Christ & they have a problem with people who believe in Jesus that way.

do you see me go after the muslims & jews?
do you see me go after the hindus & new agers for their beliefs?
no you do not!

I'm not shooting down anyone's beliefs, particularly in Jesus Christ. I consider myself as Christian. But I also find value in other religions. I believe the kingdom of God is not far from people. It's as close as your heart, if you are seeking God. I believe there is an undercurrent of God's Spirit in anyone who seeks Him out.

Look, God put people where they are. Even Paul states so in the book of Acts 17:

26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;


27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

So for someone in a society where the main religion is NOT Christianity and Christianity is banned or adherance to Chritianity would bring ostracism from family and friends, even death, that person is not going to be persuaded too easily to the Christian belief. Do you think this person would give up everything just to do abandon the religion of his country? In this case, don't you think God would operate within the boundaries this person's understanding of what he DOES believe about Him? Don't you think in this case, that the blood of Christ would reach this dear seeker of God, who is scared to believe otherwise?


Dispite differences in dogma, the fundamental principle of love is still in the belief. The love of God knows no boundaries.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I'm not shooting down anyone's beliefs, particularly in Jesus Christ. I consider myself as Christian. But I also find value in other religions. I believe the kingdom of God is not far from people. It's as close as your heart, if you are seeking God. I believe there is an undercurrent of God's Spirit in anyone who seeks Him out.

Look, God put people where they are. Even Paul states so in the book of Acts 17:

26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;


27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

So for someone in a society where the main religion is NOT Christianity and Christianity is banned or adherance to Chritianity would bring ostracism from family and friends, even death, that person is not going to be persuaded too easily to the Christian belief. Do you think this person would give up everything just to do abandon the religion of his country? In this case, don't you think God would operate within the boundaries this person's understanding of what he DOES believe about Him? Don't you think in this case, that the blood of Christ would reach this dear seeker of God, who is scared to believe otherwise?


Dispite differences in dogma, the fundamental principle of love is still in the belief. The love of God knows no boundaries.

we have already discussed all that Dondi & i said we are in agreement. I am not the judge & i dont know how it will all go on that side. i do not preach people into hell nor do i preach them into heaven.

any way i am done with this thread.
i think i shall drive back down to the Parsha.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Dondi

So for someone in a society where the main religion is NOT Christianity and Christianity is banned or adherance to Chritianity would bring ostracism from family and friends, even death, that person is not going to be persuaded too easily to the Christian belief. Do you think this person would give up everything just to do abandon the religion of his country? In this case, don't you think God would operate within the boundaries this person's understanding of what he DOES believe about Him? Don't you think in this case, that the blood of Christ would reach this dear seeker of God, who is scared to believe otherwise?


Dispite differences in dogma, the fundamental principle of love is still in the belief. The love of God knows no boundaries.

i just have one thought for you Dondi on this post, then i am done.

if they come to chop off your head or throw you into prison for believing in Christ & having a bible, which happens every single day on our little cozy planet of 'LOVE',
are you going to deny that Jesus is the Christ to save your life?

[Faithfulservant]

You know... Bandit and I converse a lot in PM's and A few days ago we were talking about this conversion thread. I told him that for a lot of ppl that believe they are in truth sure are hateful and have the tendancy to attack Christians who also believe they are in truth. The attacks usually revolve around Jesus Christ.. which is informative in itself because we are told that we would be persecuted for His names sake. Because we believe in what Jesus taught we are to be held to a higher state of morality than others.. Its true though because look what happens.. If a Christian errs in the least bit it reflects poorly on all Christians because that one Christians mistake MUST mean that ALL Christians are less than perfect.. God forbid! hence the hypocracy judgements.. I also wonder if ppl assume because our God judges that we must also judge.. Sorry I judge noone. Who am I to judge.. Jesus shed His blood for me as well as everyone else.

Its actually a blessing for us to be persecuted.. so rather than get angry and defensive.. I say heap it up!

Someone said that ppl would be surprised who makes it to the Kingdom of Heaven and I hope that everyone does because the alternative I wouldnt wish on my worst enemy and Its not our place to decide who makes it to heaven.. thats Gods decision and our commission was to share the message of salvation to all that would hear. Is that so bad? You either want to hear it or you dont.

FS