Christians converting to Islam and Judaism - Page 5

Bandit · 01-18-2006, 09:43 PM

that is a neat testimony Dondi

. i should read that book as well some day.

that is Jesus for ya, & Allah reaching out to people through Jesus. for there is but one mediator between God & man- the man Christ Jesus.
people dont just dont understand how that can be.

And where the spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty

wil · 01-18-2006, 09:49 PM

I think most Christians that convert to other religions or leave any denomination is mostly due to other Christians...

When one is given the choice of my way or the highway often enough, some will choose the highway.

Faithfulservant · 01-19-2006, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I think most Christians that convert to other religions or leave any denomination is mostly due to other Christians...

When one is given the choice of my way or the highway often enough, some will choose the highway.

If I might say that its that same rebellion that got us all in trouble in the first place. God said no.. Man didnt listen.

Scarlet Pimpernel · 01-19-2006, 04:28 PM

Yeah, but Faithfulservant, I think wil is referring to the attitude of other Christians here, not anything God expects of us. Besides, I don't believe God says it in anything like such an authoritarian manner.

Hi lunamoth, thanks for the good words! Yeah, I'm doing well - still wildly busy, but well. Check the lounge in a day or two - I'll be posting something there soon.

To answer your question, Bandit, I come from a long line of professional Lutherans.

Close to Catholicism in a lot of ways. By "professional" I mean that my grandfather was a minister, my uncle is a church organist and choir conductor, my mother and sister have both conducted choirs and taught Sunday School. And this seems as good a time as any to mention that though there are many points of religion you and I disagree on, I have nothing but the highest respect for you and your personal faith - not least because I have seen you treating those who disagree with you with great respect on this forum.

Dondi, that does sound like a great book. The book that helped me to feel that way was, ironically enough, C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle, one of the Narnia books (either the last or next to last, I'm not certain). This particular book is an allegory for Armageddon - there's a huge battle between Narnia and the neighboring country which destroys absolutely everyone and everything. The religion which the neighboring country follows is a very thinly disguised and insultingly treated Islam, with the difference that the highest deity is really an evil demon whose name I can't remember. Anyway, everybody is dead and appears before Aslan on the judgement throne. One of those there is a young boy from the neighboring country. He says to Aslan something along the lines of, "I don't understand what I am doing here, because all the followers of [demon] have been destroyed. All my life I believed that [demon] was good and you were evil, but now that I am here I see that you are good, and [demon] must have been evil. So by rights I should be destroyed too." Aslan replies (and this is what threw my head in a loop the first time I read it), "My nature is such that I cannot accept anything which is evil. [Demon]'s nature is such that he cannot accept anything that is good. Anything which is done in my name, but which is evil, [demon] accepts as done in his name. Anything which is done in [demon]'s name, but which is good, I accept as done in my name. All your life you have tried to do good and avoid evil. Therefore I accept you as one of my followers, even though you worship [demon] in name, and that is why you are here with me now."

That's a paraphrase to the best of my memory, but it made a HUGE impression on me the first time I read it and answered for me what was the biggest question I had with Christianity.

Dondi · 01-19-2006, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

If I might say that its that same rebellion that got us all in trouble in the first place. God said no.. Man didnt listen.

No to what? If a Christian comes to the conclusion, through whatever reason, that Christianity is not the Truth for him/her, what's to prevent them from seeking elsewhere. I wouldn't call that rebellion. I would call it broading one's horizons in seeking the truth. Perhaps one is disillusioned by some of the goings on with Christian circles today.

I've seen families split over doctrine. In fact, one of my friends was deep into the "health and wealth" gospel espoused by certain evangelists. Trouble came when his mother became deathly ill. He kept telling her to just have "faith" that God will heal her, that it's His will to heal her. And he kept telling the rest of his family to pray for that healing. When his mother finally died, he told his family that she just didn't have enough "faith" for the healing to be actuated. Several of his family lost faith in God and it hurt the relationships that my friend had, especially with his brothers. Is that rebellion? No, it is disillusionment, and I can't really blame the brothers from having ill thoughts toward God. The incident destroyed what faith they did have in Him.

I could come up with a myriad of reason why people turn away from Christianity. We seem to have Christianity all bundled up in a nice neat package within our various denominations. And I think with the bickering within the various sects and so caught up with doctrines like baptism, requirements for salvation, and "right" beliefs about who Jesus and God is, we have lost our capacity to love unconditionally, particularly among ourselves.

I see salvation through Christ in the words He taught about loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves. Fullfilling these two commandments fulfills the moral law of God. Beyond thatI see no other requirement. And this principle shows up in a majority of the world's religions. I believe that one who sincerely strives to do these things will find salvation. And that the effectually sacrifice of Christ's death is for the one who does these things, if such sacrifice is required, regardless of his/her ignorance or knowledge of God.

If one is seeking God, but doesn't find it in Christianity, who can blame them in seeking elsewhere?

Dondi · 01-19-2006, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

Aslan replies (and this is what threw my head in a loop the first time I read it), "My nature is such that I cannot accept anything which is evil. [Demon]'s nature is such that he cannot accept anything that is good. Anything which is done in my name, but which is evil, [demon] accepts as done in his name. Anything which is done in [demon]'s name, but which is good, I accept as done in my name. All your life you have tried to do good and avoid evil. Therefore I accept you as one of my followers, even though you worship [demon] in name, and that is why you are here with me now."

That's a paraphrase to the best of my memory, but it made a HUGE impression on me the first time I read it and answered for me what was the biggest question I had with Christianity.

I really need break down and read "The Chronicles of Narnia". C.S. Lewis has a knack of presenting things so clearly. I found his "Mere Christianity" very compelling. I think preaching and teaching of the Gospel is for those who don't have an inclination toward God, but would if they are given a chance. Those who already seeking God, in their own understanding, don't need such compulsion. They are doing what their God-given conscience is telling them to do.

taijasi · 01-19-2006, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

I've seen families split over doctrine. In fact, one of my friends was deep into the "health and wealth" gospel espoused by certain evangelists. Trouble came when his mother became deathly ill. He kept telling her to just have "faith" that God will heal her, that it's His will to heal her. And he kept telling the rest of his family to pray for that healing. When his mother finally died, he told his family that she just didn't have enough "faith" for the healing to be actuated.

sighhh ... and the sad part is, being released from the body was probably the very healing that your friend's mother needed! Why is it that people think death is bad? Unfortunately, it's the clinging to our loved ones' earthly semblance that is, itself, selfish (when the person is ready to pass over) ... but every day, people presume to know better than God, who needs to die & when.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

I see salvation through Christ in the words He taught about loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves. Fullfilling these two commandments fulfills the moral law of God. Beyond thatI see no other requirement. And this principle shows up in a majority of the world's religions.

Amen! Alas, it seems difficult for some to consider that God is more interested in what's in our hearts, and in how we live our lives from day to day, including how we treat others ... than lip service.

Or, in other words, as Scarlet points out ... it doesn't matter that many millions worship the Calormene god Tash (the Muslim Allah) ... so long as they are, essentially, fulfulling Christ's Two Commandments. This is so beautifully put, and can be carried across every religion, or worldview.

I realize that some can't understand this. But for the life of me, I do not know why. And quoting the Bible 16 jillion times ... just isn't going to convince me - that lip service could ever be more important than Doing Good.

protokletos

lunamoth · 01-19-2006, 05:07 PM

I think that rebellion (esp in youth against the traditions of parents) and the attitudes of other Christians can drive people away from Christianity (or any other religion) but I'd also say that a big factor is loss of trust such that the religion does not feel like a place of salvation any longer for a person. This would not really apply to those who drift away from all religion and conscious spirituality perhaps, as I did from Christianity the first time. But even in those who drift off I don't think that the Spirit leaves them as much as It is veiled from them, or they are asleep it It.

I don't deny that we are rebellious in nature and this plays a role in loss of faith or conversion of religions, but those who are hurt or disillusioned by a religion seem to be hit the hardest. Hurt can mean emotionally hurt but sadly it also includes people are a physically and spiritually abused by co-religionists. Disillusionment may come from the actions and hypocracy of others, but it can also come from a deep-seated loss of trust in the institution. I agree with Dondi's last sentence:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dondi

If one is seeking God, but doesn't find it in Christianity, who can blame them in seeking elsewhere?

truthseeker · 01-19-2006, 07:13 PM

I appreciate the beautiful unity going on since my last post.

I think that we can all agree that Jesus is a marvelous teacher and that indeed his yoke is easy and his burden is light. Nonetheless I happen to agree that God transcends the boundaries in which we attempt to confine Him. No one ideology holds a monopoly on man's salvation. If I believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation, I don't see the necessity of tearing down the strength of a man who has discovered his own path. Though Christianity would like to promote the single narrow path, Life plainly displays that multiple paths can lead to the same place. I love Jesus and I have yet to read in any of the Gospels Jesus' attempt to lay a stronghold on people's lives, as the divisions in Christianity can sometimes do. The rituals are fine, but everybody ain't with that. And I think it is okay. There are marvelous strengths in every religion that can even help one become a better Christian. Say, like the meditative processes in Buddhism can help strenghten a Christian in prayer. I think people are afraid of betraying their God. If you believe that there is only one God and that the whole of earth is His creation, how can you betray him? I think through reaching out to other understandings we strengthen our walk with Him. Unity in understanding is a brotherhood that is condoned in Christianity. And then again, there are people who need nothing else. That is wonderful to find everything you need all right there in one spot. But those who has found everything they need in one place shouldn't knock those who want to stretch out and embrace more than one aspect of mankind.

taijasi · 01-19-2006, 08:00 PM

Thank you, Truthseeker ... for stating this in terms of positives, and in terms of inclusiveness. I know the idea is radical to some, and just seems strange to others, but I have occasionally wondered what it would be like to be truly transcendent of earth's various religions. John Lennon expressed this in his song Imagine, but others (including Christians) have said it in various ways.

The question is, what would a Loving God want of His creatures, as they all seek to approach Him? Knowing that no two people think exactly alike, God must surely realize that He's dealing with plurality - regardless of whether people come together to worship as Christians, Muslims, Hindus ... or not at all.

And while one person believes that even a mineral is directly ensouled by a portion of the Divine Life ... another is uncertain even that there is such a thing ... as `God.' But both people may recognize the practicality, and the eventual necessity, for observing the `Golden Rule.' Thus, both will seek to live their lives harmlessly, in harmony with others, and even to be of benefit to their fellow man.

Further, if both of these people have developed a deep & abiding appreciation for the beauty and majesty of the world we live in, being inspired by creativity, selflessness and the spirit of loving service ... then does it matter one whit to Almighty God whether they call themselves Christian? Some would insist that we leave that up to God ... and yet, I think the answer is obvious. (After all, this isn't rocket surgery!)

Cheers,

andrew

Dondi · 01-19-2006, 08:46 PM

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."" (John 4:23-24)

"...For the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." (1 Samuel 16:7)

"...for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)

These passages tell me what kind of person God is looking for. Despite differences in dogma and doctrine, I believe that there are many people in most religions that God sees are true worshippers. There are many in these religions that are not, even in Christian circles. You can pray, take part in rituals, get baptized or ritually cleansed, partake in religious feasts, walk through fiery coals, whatever...but it is nothing if you heart isn't in it. God is looking to see who is REAL and who is not.

wil · 01-19-2006, 09:18 PM

My view of heaven on earth....

the last 8 posts...

I'm dancin on a cloud.

blses you all

Bandit · 01-19-2006, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

No to what? If a Christian comes to the conclusion, through whatever reason, that Christianity is not the Truth for him/her, what's to prevent them from seeking elsewhere. I wouldn't call that rebellion. I would call it broading one's horizons in seeking the truth. Perhaps one is disillusioned by some of the goings on with Christian circles today.

If one is seeking God, but doesn't find it in Christianity, who can blame them in seeking elsewhere?

to the point of 6 billion different beliefs in the world? that sounds more like confusion & rebellion to me than unity. God is not the author of confusion that way. so all this seeking God here & there & whatever way is convenient does not sound right to me at all.

there most definately is a disillusion in Chritsian'ity' but the bible & Jesus did not cause that. PEOPLE cause that.

there is confusion & dilusion in all religions.

Bandit · 01-19-2006, 09:30 PM

i also want to point out there is a severe lack of love in ALL religions & the people in them.

i also want to point out there are hypocrites in ALL religions.

so dont EVEN try to blame all this on Christians & especially on Jesus or the scriptures.

Dondi · 01-19-2006, 09:33 PM

Yes, that's it! There are 6 billion beliefs in the world. God is not going to judge us according to our affiliation. We are going to stand alone before Him and account for our life. And He is not going to judge us on our ignorance, but on our heart. Did we do what was right? Did we treat our neighbor as our self? Have we done what we can to serve and help each other? Did we seek God or the Absolute with our heart?

In the end there will be no confusion about who is truly His.