Christians and Magic/Harry Potter

[wil]

And let us teach them something of the reality, also.

But whose version of reality?

That is what is expressly at issue here. We have the ever changing science...whose reality changes as our knowledge of the big and small and the web that holds it all together/apart increases.

And then we have religion, mine, yours, theirs, many of which think the other guy has got it entirely wrong and needs saving...

Yes, 'Whose version of reality?' is/was a rhetorical question, we all know it is 'mine' that is correct, come to my church, synagogue, temple, my guru, priest, rabbi, cleric has it all together.

We (the collective we, not all of us, many of us) expressly deny there exist any issues/conflicts with our theology playing the three monkey see/do/hear no evil game when somebody wishes to discuss contradictions.

Live and let live....no, we can't do that!

[Thomas]

That is what is expressly at issue here.

No, I think that's an overstatement.

I would rather my kids didn't practice the occult arts - and I would certainly rather they didn't engage in them on the basis of the contents of a childrens' book. That's all I was saying. I let them read HP, but I do say 'it's a story.'

Nor are kids stupid:
"Do you believe in Father Christmas?" this to my teenage daughter.
"That depends."
"On what?"
"On whether or not I still get a present from Santa if I say no."

Wise girl.

+++

As a complete aside - and entirely speculative:

We have the ever changing science ... whose reality changes as our knowledge of the big and small and the web that holds it all together/apart increases.

I wonder about this. Has science changed that much? I know the technology has, but the Greeks had the basics of atomic theory? Mathematics, etc. Their optics were a bit of a mess, admittedly. We know in detail a lot more, but generally, I'm not so sure that much has changed.

What has changed is our subjectivity - and in it our certainties?

Any policeman will tell you with three witnesses, there's three different versions of an event. But nonetheless, there is a reality - an event was witnessed - is there any way we can approach reality?

And does that mean we must allow any version of the event? Even that version of someone who was not a witness?

Just how much are we obliged to live and let live?

I'm not so sure that our opening the door to the idea that we can say nothing with any certainty about anything, is a failure of responsibility and a retreat from reality as such?

As such I'm not sure it's science that insists on 'negotiable reality' (if it does then surely its whole foundation is flawed) as a certain strain of nihilistic philosophy?

And yet we can appreciate, according to the laws of nature, the existence of certitude, of certainty, and therefore objective reality.

Perhaps I should start another thread?

Thomas

[Kaldayen]

Greetings,

Originally Posted by Thomas

Remember also that there is evidence enough to believe that the practitioner will evoke any spirit, demonic or otherwise, to support him/her in this endeavour to bend another to his will?

I don't want to sound provocative here but isn't that what every christian do? But they believe they pray to The Spirit. The Church itself has an agenda of bending people to its will...

I think it's only a matter of point of view or "versions or reality".
___
Kal

[akbar]

Happy Christmiss to all friends.

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Remember that a 'spell' is a superimposition of your will upon another person or thing to force them/it to perform according to your desire.

Remember also that there is evidence enough to believe that the practitioner will evoke any spirit, demonic or otherwise, to support him/her in this endeavour to bend another to his will?

Thomas

I can understand your points, Thomas, and your concern, but I also see where Kaldayen is coming from. I should note that I am not that familiar with a Wiccan/Pagan protocol or approach regarding spells, so I'm defaulting to my own understanding as an esotericist.

My feeling is that the Harry Potter books present Magic in the proper Light, or at least in the most positive light I can imagine. It is shown that one can use magical ability for both good & ill, just as we can manipulate the world around us for good or ill without magic. But Rowling emphasizes the importance of White Magic (or Good Magic, to be a bit more politically correct), just as was demonstrated as far back as The Wizard of Oz in popular culture. At root, HP is no different, imho.

I have not read the HP books, and have only seen the first three movies, plus parts of the Goblet, but I have read about Rowling, and have enjoyed a Biography special about her on the tube. I think she did a marvelous and masterful job of presenting a morality ... without being preachy, and without taking all the fun out it. She allows characters like Hermione to maintain her smarty-pants attitude, but when Hermione confronts Malfoy, we know quite clearly who is "in the right." The actor portraying Malfoy does an excellent job of demonstrating all those poor character traits which I trust every sensible & responsible parent will seek to eschew from developing in his attentive & impressionable youngster(s).

But when we are speaking of the issue of Magic, and bending wills, and possibly invoking the demon-spawn of hell ... lol ... I'm sorry, but I think we're on very shaky ground if we look to popular culture, or the writings of J.K. Rowling, for a culprit. I would be tempted considerably to delve a bit back into church history (or christian history, since I'm thinking of Salem as much as the Inquisition) for a treatment of this sort of thing - but since the topic at hand is HP, let's compare:

In esoteric teachings, one is taught that "White Magic" might just as aptly be termed Good Magic, since it is precisely the purpose and intention (or motive) of its practice that defines it. Even Forest Gump knew that. And Dorothy had the good sense to ask Glenda whether she was a "Good Witch or a Bad Witch," NOT recoil in horror, saying, "A witch! A witch! Burn her!"

Rowling has simply built upon the well-established foundation of tolerance during the last century or so of non-Christian religions & spiritual traditions, wherein one can definitely have a clear moral distinction between Good and Evil, without appealing to all the same theological concerns as must Christians. But she has gone one step further. She has been able, in a way that I can only describe as magical (!), to captivate her audiences - both young & old alike - so completely, that she has added substantially to some people's understanding of themselves, and of the Magic of Life Itself.

Of course it's "just a fantasy," and of course this isn't the way our outward, physical world operates. But right down to Hermione's "time-turner," which was able to manipulate time in order to accomplish Good and set things Right ... Rowling presents a fantasy that explores questions we have all asked, and leaves (many) of us wishing it were so - and for the right reasons, I should add.

I might point out that Occultists, or Esotericists, seeking to walk the path of White Magic, actively manipulate - not the environment, nor others - according to their individual will (aka, `desire'). Rather, they seek to subjugate their (own) entire personality, or lower nature, consisting of body, emotions, & mind ... to the Spiritual Will, or that of the Indwelling Christ (which St. Paul called "the Hope of Glory"). This is done scientifically, systematically, and successfully, and the process is open to any who wish to submit themselves to the necessary self-discipline involved. Thus we have the root of the word `disciple,' as well as the meaning of the words found in Matthew 7:7.

Harry Potter was quite able, we find, to handle the spiritual energy (pure Christ-Force, as it appears to me) in the Prisoner of Azkaban, when he sought to protect Sirius Black from the Dementors. Now I think it is fairly clearly spelled out for us, that the Dementors in this movie/book, and particularly in the scene to which I refer, are representative of evil, or demons ... while Harry, his wand, his intentions, and his effort to save the life of Sirius Black all represent, unequivocally, GOOD.

Harry did not accidentally invoke these demons as he sought to save his good friend, but he did prove that at that juncture, he was as yet unable to fully harness the Higher Powers - or the Christ-Force (gee, it was pure, white-light energy, you can call it what you like ... I wonder, how did Rowling refer to it in the books?). Instead, he assumed his Father was the one who stepped in and directed the energy. But as he later discovered - and truly spontaneously, in a moment of courage (a strong, heroic quality of character, imho) - he was ready to handle the energy, since his Father was never involved, and wasn't going to show. I admit I read the following message into Rowling's storyline (at least, I presume), but I would go so far as to emphasize the message that - The Lord helps the one who helps himself! So perhaps the importance of self-reliance is also being shown! Regardless, Harry is not wildly invoking demons through his magic, accidentally or otherwise. He is demonstraing, however, just what the healing, salvific powers of Magic can do! And in my own, personal belief-system, that has everything to do with Christ & Christianity!

Cheers,

Andrew

[harticulate]

New Here..........and havn't had time to read all the posts on this.

All I can say is that ........I have tended to follow Jesus teachings....but don't necessarily consider myself to be labeled any certain religion anymore.

My 13yr old loves the Harry Potter movies. He will set and watch them all back to back...........sometimes I join in.

I was sitting at my dads one night and my dad had the Christian channel on per usual and "Hagee" was on ............I think he is hardcore baptist minister. Potter was being ripped to shreds and warnings of witchcraft were being fired out.

It boggles my mind...........Jesus turned water into wine........the Red Sea was parted for Moses..............and so on.........

Isn't all life magic.....? I don't get it.............Harry Potter is a good guy.....

Heidi

[Quahom1]

Magic, is considered simply the art of illusion, But... Whether it be magic that entertains, or magic that affects others. It is also science as yet discovered.

Christ never performed magic. He defended the laws of nature. He also made it quite clear that we do not understand all the laws of nature. We, in our arrogant ignorance, think we understand everything. But do we?

We invent a CPU (central processing unit), yet we still do not understand how, or WHY it works?! Only that it does.

"That's nuts" some might say. Is it? We invented a mechanical part of the brain (which we still know nothing about). We simply followed a pattern (a rather simple one), that we figured out about the brain.

And now we have "super computers" doing our thinking for us; ironic, don't you think?

Magic? Science unknown? If I put a man from 33 AD (ACE...whatever), in front of my computer screen right this moment, what do you think he would think?

If Harry Potter were sitting in front of a computer screen, what do you think he would think?

Hate to break it to y'all, but Christians love magic. In fact they expect it everyday (and get it).

How many others can say the same thing?

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Welcome to CR, harticulate! I'm certain you will find points of interest here.

v/r

Q

[taijasi]

Btw, I know this is tangent, but Quahom, since you mention it ... there are over 100 million transistors in today's tiny little CPU's (my #is probably a little low), and more than twice that many in our GPU's (video chips). I know it's not "magic," but ummm ... WOW!!! Tiny, tiny little fingers ... ?

Also, I just love the Geico/Neanderthal commericals ... anybody know the ones I mean?

Andrew

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Btw, I know this is tangent, but Quahom, since you mention it ... there are over 100 million transistors in today's tiny little CPU's (my #is probably a little low), and more than twice that many in our GPU's (video chips). I know it's not "magic," but ummm ... WOW!!! Tiny, tiny little fingers ... ?

Also, I just love the Geico/Neanderthal commericals ... anybody know the ones I mean?

Andrew

Good points. There are also 10,000 billion plus, synapeses in the human brain

And...they work in parrallel, not in series...

find a CPU that does that, and I'll admit to artificial life potential.

v/r

Q

[harticulate]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Hate to break it to y'all, but Christians love magic. In fact they expect it everyday (and get it). Q

Well I guess ...............If you are a person of prayer for example.........:

Praying...........thinking or saying thoughts to your perceived God.........and then expecting and/or actually receiving an answer.......hmmmmmmmm

Thoughts on waves to an entity and then the entity sending thoughts.. waves...events ....back. Magic?????

Yes this is one of the issues that has always quite puzzled me.......any believers in any god..................believing the weirdest things and then pointing fingers at others of other faiths that believe in weird things and then calling them weird.

Or is it? Good magic equals a Christian/Bad magic equals a witch?

Don't mind me I am just thinking aloud and getting my feet wet here.

But this subject does resonate with me .............

My mother was a Catholic.....................now she is Wiccan/Mother Earth etc.......I professed myself as Christian to her and to myself for many years. I never told her I dissapproved of her practices ...............we just didn't talk religion.

This year for Christmas(early family christmas party) I gave her a Halloween Barbie (found it on clearance). She loves witch stuff. I came right out and told her that I did not want her to feel like she could not share her religion with me. I told her ...........I follow Jesus............He was of a good spirit......and "Mom............if you are a witch...........you are a good witch.......you are of a good spirit......good spirits are good spirits"

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by harticulate

Well I guess ...............If you are a person of prayer for example.........:

Praying...........thinking or saying thoughts to your perceived God.........and then expecting and/or actually receiving an answer.......hmmmmmmmm

Thoughts on waves to an entity and then the entity sending thoughts.. waves...events ....back. Magic?????

Yes this is one of the issues that has always quite puzzled me.......any believers in any god..................believing the weirdest things and then pointing fingers at others of other faiths that believe in weird things and then calling them weird.

Or is it? Good magic equals a Christian/Bad magic equals a witch?

Don't mind me I am just thinking aloud and getting my feet wet here.

But this subject does resonate with me .............

My mother was a Catholic.....................now she is Wiccan/Mother Earth etc.......I professed myself as Christian to her and to myself for many years. I never told her I dissapproved of her practices ...............we just didn't talk religion.

This year for Christmas(early family christmas party) I gave her a Halloween Barbie (found it on clearance). She loves witch stuff. I came right out and told her that I did not want her to feel like she could not share her religion with me. I told her ...........I follow Jesus............He was of a good spirit......and "Mom............if you are a witch...........you are a good witch.......you are of a good spirit......good spirits are good spirits"

Magic is magic neither good nor bad. The intent of the magic maker determines the good or evil of it. What is considered magic today, often enough becomes "science" tomorrow.

v/r

Q

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Remember that a 'spell' is a superimposition of your will upon another person or thing to force them/it to perform according to your desire.

Uh, no. Not in Wicca, at least. Forcing anyone or anything to do anything is a great big no-no in Wicca, and will inevitably turn around and bite you in a big way. A spell is a means to focus your energy and your will in order to change the circumstances of your own life. In fact, most Wiccans I know preface their spellwork with a call to the Deities, something along the lines of "If it is not contrary to Your will..."

Remember also that there is evidence enough to believe that the practitioner will evoke any spirit, demonic or otherwise, to support him/her in this endeavour to bend another to his will?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're meaning to say here. What sort of evidence are you talking about? Practitioner of what, exactly? Are you referring to someone in particular (even a hypothetical someone) or to any practitioner of any sort of magic or spellwork? If that last, then again, no. Many Wiccans, and other Pagans too, I dare say, do absolutely no evocations of any sort of spirit. And of those that do, I don't think anyone with any sense of cause-and-effect would care to evoke a demonic spirit. As any Christian would agree, there's a big difference between recognizing the existence of evil spirits and wanting to work closely with them.

Reading any text will also highlight the fact that steps must be taken to ensure one's safety in the event of 'backfire'. The circle in which the magician stands is there to protect him/her against any 'fallout' from the invocation going wrong - against 'collateral damage' as modern parlance has it.

Well, not necessarily. The circle is also to protect you from disturbing outside influences - like how you close the door, turn off the TV, and ask your kids to keep it down when you're about to make an important phone call. It's also an aid in focus - like talking into a megaphone. And the strongest circle in the world won't protect you from the "fallout" you'll incur on yourself by attempting to "force" anyone or anything.

Besides which, in the HP books casting a circle is never really mentioned, except, I believe, when Dark Wizards are doing magic.

How many times does it have to be said? Ask any magician or Pagan, there's no way you could learn magic/k or spellwork by reading a Harry Potter book or seeing a movie. Kids wanting to learn HP-style magic who look into Paganism or ritual magic/k will be sorely disappointed. In that sense, Thomas, I agree with you - it's just a story.

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

I agree that it is just a story and probably bears little or no relation to any real pagan practices, I think we can all agree on that.

My point is that any attempt to ban this book, even to certain audiences (like children for example) on the basis that it portrays paganism and witchcraft, is a form of discrimination.

It would not be acceptable to ban children from reading a book which portrays Islam or Judaism for example, and any attempt to do so would surely (and rightly) be met with great opposition, not least on this forum. But this attempt to keep children away from any reference to witchcraft is met with a kind of mildly irritated amusement.

We westerners have spent centuries oppressing an ancient and noble religion, spreading lies about its practices and practitioners and at times, horribly killing anyone suspected of being involved in it. In this age of reason (dare I call it that?) isn't it about time to call off the witchhunt and show our brothers and sisters some real tolerance and maybe ..... even love?

[Thomas]

We westerners have spent centuries oppressing an ancient and noble religion, spreading lies about its practices and practitioners and at times, horribly killing anyone suspected of being involved in it. In this age of reason (dare I call it that?) isn't it about time to call off the witchhunt and show our brothers and sisters some real tolerance and maybe ..... even love?

For a moment there, I thought you were talking about Catholicism!

Thomas