Christianity - what do you really think about it?

[islamis4u]

Originally Posted by Falafel

Hi!

I'm a student who holds to Christian beliefs, and I would like to learn more and dialogue about the Muslim perspective of Christianity. What do you think about our beliefs? The person of Jesus? etc.

I look forward to hearing from you.

I would have same reply what sister 'Muslim woman' have said, with one more thing that Jesus (pbuh) heal the born blinds but with Allah's permission

We do not believe in Christianity because Christianity depends on Bible and Let me make it very clear to every one, that this Bible which the Christians believe to be the word of God, is not the ‘Injeel’ which we Muslims believe, was revealed to Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him. This Bible according to us, it may contain the words of God - But it also contains words of Prophets, words of historians, it contains absurdities, obscenity, as well as innumerable scientific errors. If there are scientific points mentioned in the Bible - there are possibilities - why not? It may be part of the word of God, in the Bible. But what about the scientific errors ? - What about the unscientific portions? - Can you attribute this to God ? want to make it very clear to my Christian brothers and sisters - The purpose of my presentation on ‘Bible and science’ is not to hurt any Christian’s feeling. If while presenting, if I hurt your feelings, I do apologize in advance. The purpose is only to point out, that a God’s Revelation cannot contain scientific errors. because it was changed you know how many testament you have. Quran is one and only only one no new version or old version and as Quran is true word of God so we believe in and in Quran Allah Forbids us to say Jesus (pbuh) a son of God.

I can prove you that bible have so may scientific errors and which Quran do not have one.

As Jesus Christ, peace be upon him said… ‘Search ye the truth, and the truth shall free you.’ You have the Old Testament, we have the New Testament - Now you should follow the Last and Final Testament, which is the Glorious Qur’an.

. Let us analyse what the Bible says about modern science - First we deal with Astronomy., The Bible speaks about the creation of the universe. In the beginning, 1st Book, Book of Genesis, 1st Ch., it is mentioned - It says… ‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, in six days and talks about a evening and a morning, referring to a 24 - hour day. Today scientists tell us, that the universe cannot be created in a 24 hour period of six days. Qur’an too speaks about six ‘ayyams’. The Arabic word singular is ‘yaum’ plural is ‘ayyam’. It can either mean a day of 24 hours, or it is a very long period, an ‘yaum’, an epoch. Scientists say we have no objection in agreeing that the universe - it could have been created in 6 very long periods. Point No.2 - Bible says in Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses No. 3 and 5,…‘Light was created on the first day.’ enesis, Ch., 1 Verses, 14 to 19… ‘The cause of light - stars and the sun, etc. was created on the fourth day’. How can the cause of light be created on the 4th day - later than the light which came into existence on the first day? - It is unscientific. Further, the, Bible says Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses 9 to 13… ‘Earth was created on the 3rd day. How can you have a night and day without the earth ? The day depends upon the rotation of the Earth Without the earth created, how can you have a night and day? Point No..4, Genesis, Ch. No. 1 Verses 9 to 13 says… ‘Earth was created on the third day.’ Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses 14 to 19 says…‘The Sun and the Moon were created on the fourth day.’ Today science tells us… ‘Earth is part of the parent body… the sun.’ It cannot come into existence before the sun – It is unscientific. Point No. 5, the Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No. 11 to 13…‘The vegetation, the herbs the shrubs, the trees - they were created on the 3rd day And the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verses. 14 to 19, was created on the 4th day.How can the vegetation come into existence without sunlight, and how can they survive without sunlight ? Point No.6, that the Bible says in Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses No.16, that…‘God created two lights the greater light, the Sun to rule the day, and the lesser light the Moon, to rule the night. The actual translation, if you go to the Hebrew text, it is ‘lamps’…‘Lamps having lights of its own.’ And that you will come to know better, if you read both the Verses – Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse. 16, as well as 17. Verse No.17 says…‘And Almighty God placed them in the firmament, to give light to the earth… To give light to the earth.’ Indicating, that Sun and the Moon has its own light - which is in contradiction with established scientific knowledge that we have. There are certain people who try and reconciliate, and say that the six days mentioned in the Bible, it actually refers to epocs - like the Qur’an long periods - not six, 24 hour day. It is illogical - you read in the Bible, evening, morning - It clearly states 24 hours, it indicates. But even if I use the concordance approach - no problem. I agree with your illogical argument - Yet they will only be able to solve the 1st scientific error of 6 days creation, and second, of first day ‘light’ and 3rd day ‘earth.’ The remaining four, yet they cannot solve. Some further say that… ‘If it is a 24-hour period, why cannot the vegetables survive for one 24 hour day without sunlight?’ I say ‘Fine - If you say that the vegetables were created before the sun, and can survive for one 24-hour day, I have got no objection. But you cannot say the days mentioned are 24 hours as well as epochs - You cannot have the cake and eat it, both. If you say it is long period, you solve Point No.1 and 3, the remaining 4 are yet there. If you say the days are 24 hours day, you solve only Point No.5 - the remaining 5 are yet there - It becomes unscientific.

[islamis4u]

Originally Posted by Falafel

Hi!

I'm a student who holds to Christian beliefs, and I would like to learn more and dialogue about the Muslim perspective of Christianity. What do you think about our beliefs? The person of Jesus? etc.

I look forward to hearing from you.

I will say s ame what muslimwoman said by adding that Jesus(pbuh) healed the born linds with the permission of God.


. If there are scientific points mentioned in the Bible - there are possibilities - why not? It may be part of the word of God, in the Bible. But what about the scientific errors ? - What about the unscientific portions? - Can you attribute this to God ? want to make it very clear to my Christian brothers and sisters - The purpose of my presentation on ‘Bible and science’ is not to hurt any Christian’s feeling. If while presenting, if I hurt your feelings, I do apologize in advance. The purpose is only to point out, that a God’s Revelation cannot contain scientific errors. As Jesus Christ, peace be upon him said… ‘Search ye the truth, and the truth shall free you.’ We have the Old Testament, we have the New Testament - Now you should follow the Last and Final Testament, which is the Glorious Qur’an.

. Let us analyse what the Bible says about modern science - First we deal with Astronomy., The Bible speaks about the creation of the universe. In the beginning, 1st Book, Book of Genesis, 1st Ch., it is mentioned - It says… ‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, in six days and talks about a evening and a morning, referring to a 24 - hour day. Today scientists tell us, that the universe cannot be created in a 24 hour period of six days. Qur’an too speaks about six ‘ayyams’. The Arabic word singular is ‘yaum’ plural is ‘ayyam’. It can either mean a day of 24 hours, or it is a very long period, an ‘yaum’, an epoch. Scientists say we have no objection in agreeing that the universe - it could have been created in 6 very long periods. Point No.2 - Bible says in Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses No. 3 and 5,…‘Light was created on the first day.’ enesis, Ch., 1 Verses, 14 to 19… ‘The cause of light - stars and the sun, etc. was created on the fourth day’. How can the cause of light be created on the 4th day - later than the light which came into existence on the first day? - It is unscientific. Further, the, Bible says Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses 9 to 13… ‘Earth was created on the 3rd day. How can you have a night and day without the earth ? The day depends upon the rotation of the Earth Without the earth created, how can you have a night and day? Point No..4, Genesis, Ch. No. 1 Verses 9 to 13 says… ‘Earth was created on the third day.’ Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses 14 to 19 says…‘The Sun and the Moon were created on the fourth day.’ Today science tells us… ‘Earth is part of the parent body… the sun.’ It cannot come into existence before the sun – It is unscientific. Point No. 5, the Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No. 11 to 13…‘The vegetation, the herbs the shrubs, the trees - they were created on the 3rd day And the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verses. 14 to 19, was created on the 4th day.How can the vegetation come into existence without sunlight, and how can they survive without sunlight ? Point No.6, that the Bible says in Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses No.16, that…‘God created two lights the greater light, the Sun to rule the day, and the lesser light the Moon, to rule the night. The actual translation, if you go to the Hebrew text, it is ‘lamps’…‘Lamps having lights of its own.’ And that you will come to know better, if you read both the Verses – Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse. 16, as well as 17. Verse No.17 says…‘And Almighty God placed them in the firmament, to give light to the earth… To give light to the earth.’ Indicating, that Sun and the Moon has its own light - which is in contradiction with established scientific knowledge that we have. There are certain people who try and reconciliate, and say that the six days mentioned in the Bible, it actually refers to epocs - like the Qur’an long periods - not six, 24 hour day. It is illogical - you read in the Bible, evening, morning - It clearly states 24 hours, it indicates. But even if I use the concordance approach - no problem. I agree with your illogical argument - Yet they will only be able to solve the 1st scientific error of 6 days creation, and second, of first day ‘light’ and 3rd day ‘earth.’ The remaining four, yet they cannot solve. Some further say that… ‘If it is a 24-hour period, why cannot the vegetables survive for one 24 hour day without sunlight?’ I say ‘Fine - If you say that the vegetables were created before the sun, and can survive for one 24-hour day, I have got no objection. But you cannot say the days mentioned are 24 hours as well as epochs - You cannot have the cake and eat it, both. If you say it is long period, you solve Point No.1 and 3, the remaining 4 are yet there. If you say the days are 24 hours day, you solve only Point No.5 - the remaining 5 are yet there - It becomes unscientific.

this is only one error i produce right now for you but their are so many.

[bananabrain]

islamis4u,

you don't understand how the Torah works. in particular, you don't understand how genesis works. it's not an astronomy text. the fact that we're talking about "days" before the sun and moon are Created ought to be a bit of a clue that this isn't supposed to be read literally. and any of the accusations you level at the Torah could be aimed just as easily at the Qur'an. this is one of the most ridiculous arguments i've ever seen.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[bob x]

Originally Posted by islamis4u

The Arabic word singular is ‘yaum’ plural is ‘ayyam’.

This is, of course, the EXACT SAME WORD that is used in Genesis (the Hebrew plural, yowmiym, is formed with a suffix instead of a prefix, that's the only difference).

[islamis4u]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

islamis4u,

you don't understand how the Torah works. in particular, you don't understand how genesis works. it's not an astronomy text. the fact that we're talking about "days" before the sun and moon are Created ought to be a bit of a clue that this isn't supposed to be read literally. and any of the accusations you level at the Torah could be aimed just as easily at the Qur'an. this is one of the most ridiculous arguments i've ever seen.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Give a precise answer and do not say that you know or not okay!!!!
secondly i do not said you should reply this ridiculous post, i have been seeing your posts to my posts from top to bottom every now and then you disrespect me or my country.

[islamis4u]

Originally Posted by bob x

This is, of course, the EXACT SAME WORD that is used in Genesis (the Hebrew plural, yowmiym, is formed with a suffix instead of a prefix, that's the only difference).

Yeah i agree with you but if you would take yowmiym then it will one and if you take other it will solve by taking one at a time you cannot solve all...

[Azure24]

To claim God is prohibited by the laws of science is ridiculous islamis4u. So forget about Genesis, what other "flaws" have you found? (please post them in the christian forum I'll be obliged to answer them).

[islamis4u]

Okay brother i will on your requst.

[bob x]

Originally Posted by islamis4u

Yeah i agree with you but if you would take yowmiym then it will one and if you take other it will solve by taking one at a time you cannot solve all...

This sentence does not convey any meaning at all. I understand that English is not your native tongue, but can you try again?

[islamis4u]

Originally Posted by bob x

This sentence does not convey any meaning at all. I understand that English is not your native tongue, but can you try again?

Sorry brother my Mistake i was saying that if you take it as one long period or one day it will then solve some not all the contradictions, In QUran it is not like that.

[bob x]

I do not see any difference whatsoever here between Genesis and the Qur'an. I do not even see what it is that *you think* is the difference. Can you try to explain?

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by islamis4u

Give a precise answer and do not say that you know or not okay!!!!

ok then - firstly, like bob says, YOMYM is *exactly* the same word as "ayyam".

It is illogical - you read in the Bible, evening, morning - It clearly states 24 hours, it indicates.

nowhere in the genesis text does it mention hours, let alone periods of 24 hours. this is completely incorrect. thirdly:

Point No.2 - Bible says in Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses No. 3 and 5,…‘Light was created on the first day.’ enesis, Ch., 1 Verses, 14 to 19… ‘The cause of light - stars and the sun, etc. was created on the fourth day’. How can the cause of light be created on the 4th day - later than the light which came into existence on the first day? - It is unscientific.

indeed it is unscientific, because it's not a scientific text. the sages asked this very question and the answer they came up with was that the light created on the first day was or ha-sekhel; in other words "enlightenment".

Further, the, Bible says Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses 9 to 13… ‘Earth was created on the 3rd day. How can you have a night and day without the earth ? The day depends upon the rotation of the Earth Without the earth created, how can you have a night and day?

that is *precisely* the reason we do not read this text as a literal blow-by-blow, real-time account, because it clearly isn't one. and the term used does not necessarily denote this planet, earth, but the concept of inhabitable space, of which this is but one.

Today science tells us… ‘Earth is part of the parent body… the sun.’

where does "science" tell us that?

How can the vegetation come into existence without sunlight, and how can they survive without sunlight?

there are plenty of plants that do not depend on sunlight for their nourishment - lichens, fungi, algae and the like. it is clear that these developed before other, more advanced, photosynthesising plants. the terms used signify plant life, not exclusively plants that require sunlight. i think it's you that is lacking in scientific knowledge, not to mention knowledge of biblical hebrew.

The actual translation, if you go to the Hebrew text, it is ‘lamps’…‘Lamps having lights of its own.’

oh, you can translate biblical hebrew, can you now? so this isn't just another cut-and-paste job, then? if you're going to make long quotes (and here, it seems as if there are two different writing styles, yours and that of whoever you copied) you should at least attribute them, otherwise that's breach of copyright. the actual translation of the word is not "lamps". properly speaking, it is "lights" or "luminaries."

Indicating, that Sun and the Moon has its own light - which is in contradiction with established scientific knowledge that we have.

actually, the text indicates nothing of the sort - in fact, it describes the difference between the two types of light, whether the lights are self-generated or reflected - *moonlight* is the reflected light of the sun, described as "the smaller light", to denote its reflected nature, whereas the sun is described as "the greater light". this shouldn't exactly stretch the text beyond credibility.

consequently this conclusion:

If you say it is long period, you solve Point No.1 and 3, the remaining 4 are yet there. If you say the days are 24 hours day, you solve only Point No.5 - the remaining 5 are yet there - It becomes unscientific.

appears frankly idiotic. there are no objections that you have raised that require the six days of Creation to last 24 hours. wherever you're getting this stuff, i suggest you ask for your money back, because you're being conned.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[islamis4u]

Originally Posted by bob x

I do not see any difference whatsoever here between Genesis and the Qur'an. I do not even see what it is that *you think* is the difference. Can you try to explain?

Im talking about the way it is used i say the word is the same but the way it is used?

[islamis4u]

ok then - firstly, like bob says, YOMYM is *exactly* the same word as "ayyam".

I replied

indeed it is unscientific, because it's not a scientific text. the sages asked this very question and the answer they came up with was that the light created on the first day was or ha-sekhel; in other words "enlightenment".

God do not know any science? Can you prove anything which is unscientific in Quran?

that is *precisely* the reason we do not read this text as a literal blow-by-blow, real-time account, because it clearly isn't one. and the term used does not necessarily denote this planet, earth, but the concept of inhabitable space, of which this is but one.

It is your ow interpretations okay not God's words which you claim.

where does "science" tell us that?

Big Bang Theory

there are plenty of plants that do not depend on sunlight for their nourishment - lichens, fungi, algae and the like. it is clear that these developed before other, more advanced, photosynthesising plants. the terms used signify plant life, not exclusively plants that require sunlight. i think it's you that is lacking in scientific knowledge, not to mention knowledge of biblical hebrew.

Firstly Lichens: are symbiotic associations of a fungus (the mycobiont) with a photosynthetic partner (the photobiont also known as the phycobiont) that can produce food for the lichen from sunlight.
Improve your knowledge about science???
Secondly i talked about shrubs, herbs and trees???
It is qouted and hey look im copying now okay:

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day

Now my words uncle!!!

I wrote shrubs trees and herbs because the seed bearing or fruit bearing plants are shrubs, trees and herbs.
Food bearing plants okay!!!! not algae or fungi!!!!!!!!!!!

oh, you can translate biblical hebrew, can you now? so this isn't just another cut-and-paste job, then? if you're going to make long quotes (and here, it seems as if there are two different writing styles, yours and that of whoever you copied) you should at least attribute them, otherwise that's breach of copyright. the actual translation of the word is not "lamps". properly speaking, it is "lights" or "luminaries."

Again that idiotic statements i do not reply foolish statements!!!!
I do not have to justify my self again and again but for your reasoning Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages, Quran is in Arabic and if you know arabic you get much to know about Hebrew, secondly I may be very young but i do my research we Muslims are not the one to sit idly and listens only songs and music and films and do not get knowledge about their books or other books our parents work much much harder on our religious studies,
About your point i would have to say that you may have created your own Hebrew dictionary, If you do not know then do not answer.


actually, the text indicates nothing of the sort - in fact, it describes the difference between the two types of light, whether the lights are self-generated or reflected - *moonlight* is the reflected light of the sun, described as "the smaller light", to denote its reflected nature, whereas the sun is described as "the greater light". this shouldn't exactly stretch the text beyond credibility.

consequently this conclusion:

appears frankly idiotic. there are no objections that you have raised that require the six days of Creation to last 24 hours. wherever you're getting this stuff, i suggest you ask for your money back, because you're being conned.

I do not again reply idiotic statements i wrote above that i would be having brake but what can i say is that i could not stop my self by replying my uncle of who do not have much knowledge about science and about his own book, lastly if you have any unscientific points in Quran tell me???
You just try to claim the debate by saying that i copy i do my homework before replying uncle!!!!

I would have loved to reply your all idiotic posts but i do not have much time, as i told, May Allah give you right path to seek.

Salam

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by islamis4u

Im talking about the way it is used i say the word is the same but the way it is used?

it *is* used the same way, because the terminology used is the same!

God do not know any science? Can you prove anything which is unscientific in Quran?

i didn't say G!D doesn't Know any science. i said the Torah isn't a book about science. (nor, in my opinion, is the Qur'an) that doesn't mean the Torah can't express opinions on matters which science also expresses opinions on. what i am saying, however, is that the Torah does *not* in fact say what you are saying it says. i can't be any clearer than that. and i am not here to say whether the Qur'an is scientific or not. i am here to address your attempt to disprove the Torah by misrepresenting what it says.

It is your own interpretations okay not God's words which you claim.

not at all. firstly, many great scholars have already held this opinion. secondly, as far as i am concerned, the Torah *is* "G!D's Word", dictated to moses (musa) but that doesn't mean it's always obvious what the Torah means, any more than it's obvious what the Qur'an means - and if you say it is obvious, then i'd have to point out that a large number of Qur'an scholars disagree with you. if you are intending to refer to the argument that the Qur'an is "G!D's actual Speech", then i'd have to reply that this is your *opinion*, rather than an actual fact.

Big Bang Theory

really? first i've heard of it. as i understand it, everything was part of everything, which isn't a million miles away from what the Torah understands in any case, even if it isn't said explicitly. remember, G!D *divides* stuff initially. it's not at all incompatible with the big bang.

Firstly Lichens: are symbiotic associations of a fungus (the mycobiont) with a photosynthetic partner (the photobiont also known as the phycobiont) that can produce food for the lichen from sunlight.
Improve your knowledge about science???

hehe, yes. ok, so lichens use photosynthesis, but my point is that there are plenty of plants that don't, like those that grow in the deep ocean and in caves.

Secondly i talked about shrubs, herbs and trees???

i'm interested in what the *Torah* is talking about. thanks for giving the context. the Torah is talking about the ability of the vegetation to reproduce, not how it gets nourishment. you will notice that it does the same thing with the fishes and swarming things.

the essential point here is that the Torah is not concerned with photosynthesis or describing how plants "eat" or otherwise. it's concerned with how things do the whole "fruitful and multiply" thing. so actually, your question's a non-sequitur in the context of the passage.

I do not have to justify my self again and again but for your reasoning Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages, Quran is in Arabic and if you know arabic you get much to know about Hebrew,

i know this perfectly well. my point is not about my own knowledge or otherwise, but the fact that all our religious scholars (whose knowledge is much greater than mine - and yours) have addressed this point and *none* of them have suggested the conclusion that you have apparently selected from some the-Qur'an-is-better-than-the-Torah polemic article which is ignorant about how the Torah works.

i could not stop my self by replying my uncle of who do not have much knowledge about science and about his own book

er..... eh? are you talking about me? i certainly know more about Torah than you, but i'm not expressing opinions about science, only about Torah.

I would have loved to reply your all idiotic posts but i do not have much time, as i told, May Allah give you right path to seek.

ok, then i'll assume you understood how your points don't actually make sense and i'll thank you, because Allah has indeed given me the right path to seek and it is the path of Torah.

b'shalom

bananabrain