Christianity Vs Baha’i

[Postmaster]

The Bab and Baha'u'llah compared to John the Baptist and Christ..

People say there are similarities towards these 4 characters. But I would say no.

But unlike John the Baptist and Jesus, the Bab and Baha'u'llah were not related by blood, and the Bab never met Baha'u'llah, although he sent him the gift of a pen. And unlike John, the Bab was the wellspring of a new faith, naming himself among Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. John the Baptist also preached to all his disciples and followers that Jesus was "the lamb of God" whereas the bab didn't even mention that towards Baha'u'llah, in fact he never considered him important at all.


Anyone agree? My research from books, and online has bought me to this conclusion.. False Prophecy? Baha'u'llah had an educated and high class upbringing, he was also known as an intelligent young man.

[Marcion]

I don't really see any similarities between the religions. Jesus and John had entirely different motives and teachings for mankind, despite the similarity with Jesus and Baha'u'llah's humble piety towards all.

I wouldn't say false prophecy to any religion, as we don't have all the answers, I don't think anyone does, but Baha'i has a different mission than what Christianity or the various Christian sects have...

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

The Bab and Baha'u'llah compared to John the Baptist and Christ..

People say there are similarities towards these 4 characters. But I would say no.

But unlike John the Baptist and Jesus, the Bab and Baha'u'llah were not related by blood, and the Bab never met Baha'u'llah, although he sent him the gift of a pen. And unlike John, the Bab was the wellspring of a new faith, naming himself among Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. John the Baptist also preached to all his disciples and followers that Jesus was "the lamb of God" whereas the bab didn't even mention that towards Baha'u'llah, in fact he never considered him important at all.


Anyone agree? My research from books, and online has bought me to this conclusion.. False Prophecy? Baha'u'llah had an educated and high class upbringing, he was also known as an intelligent young man.

Well, it is not a straightforward comparison because as you pointed out the Bab is considered to be a Manifestation of God in His own right, which John the Baptist is not. The things about the Bab not being a blood relative of Baha'u'llah or even having met Him do not really seem relevant. When John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah he replied no, but when Jesus was asked if John was Elijah He replied yes.

11Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist. (Matt 17)

The important part is the spiritual return, rather than the outward signs, and the same is emphasized about Baha'u'llah being the return of the Christ Spirit.

Baha'i history indicates that the Bab was indeed aware that Baha'u'llah was Him Who God Will Make Manifest following the Bab, even though they did not meet. What is somewhat confusing is that Baha'u'llah's brother was actually given stewardship of the faithful for some time after the Bab's death. Baha'i history shows that the brother was totally not fit for leadership of the believers and did not display the character you'd associate with a Manifestation of God, while Baha'u'llah did.

The very short period of time between two Manifestations of God is confusing to me as well, although Baha'i interpretation of prophesy is that two (twin)Manifestations are expected at the Return of Christ/Messiah not only in Christianity but also in Judaism, Islam and (I think) Buddhism.

lunamoth

[arthra]

Let me say that "debate" in and of inself is not something we Baha'is are that interested in... that is, we may consult on something but are not that enthused by debates because they tend to polarize people. Also we Baha'is accept Christianity as a valid religion and we accept Jesus...therefore we do not see it as "Christainity vrs, Baha'i" because both religions are from God.

But since a few points were raised by Postmaster I'll respond as a matter of information rather that in the style of a "debate".

Postmaster wrote:

'John the Baptist also preached to all his disciples and followers that Jesus was "the lamb of God" whereas the bab didn't even mention that towards Baha'u'llah, in fact he never considered him important at all.'

Consider the following verses from the Bible:

"This is the one of whom I said: He Who comes after me ranks before me..."

- John 1:15

The One WHo comes after me I am not fit to undo His sandal strap"

- John 1:27-28

Lunamoth already referred to this earlier... that the Bab constantly referred to "One Whom God would make manifest" this Figure was to weigh and judge all the Revelation of the Bab Himself and what ever He was to declare was to be accepted by the Babis....Baha'u'llah declared Himself to be "Him Whom God would make manifest."

Here are references from the Writings of the Bab to Him Whom God will make manifest:

"A thousand perusals of the Bayán," He further remarks, "cannot equal the perusal of a single verse to be revealed by `Him Whom God shall make manifest.'... Today the Bayán is in the stage of seed; at the beginning of the manifestation of `Him Whom God shall make manifest' its ultimate perfection will become apparent.... The Bayán and such as are believers therein yearn more ardently after Him than the yearning of any lover after his beloved.... The Bayán deriveth all its glory from `Him Whom God shall make manifest.' All blessing be upon him who believeth in Him and woe betide him that rejecteth His truth."

Source:

http://www.bahai-library.com/study/d...B_P11_P100.htm

The Bab's ministry was short lived by comparison to others...It's primary purpose was to destabilize the Shiah ecclesiastical establishment, which was accomplished in a very short period of time... So in this sense the Bab was preparing the way much as John the Baptist did at the time of Christ.

Postmaster also wrote:

"Baha'u'llah had an educated and high class upbringing, he was also known as an intelligent young man."

Here again, while Baha'u'llah was from an upper class (His father served at first as minister to one of the sons of Fath-`Ali Shah (r.. 1797-1834), and then, late in the same shah's reign, he was appointed governor of Burujird and Luristan) source: http://bahai-library.com/encyclopedia/bahabio.html , the education of his class was primarily restricted to Persian poetry, calligraphy and the social graces... It was not ecclesiastical, that is, He never entered a theological school or scholastic environment. Yet many Mullas who studied Shiah theological subjects for years dropped their positions in their "colleges" to enroll in the new Faith and risked their lives to proclaim it.

- Art

[arthra]

Thank you Luna moth for your notes. Let me respond to a feww of the points you raised:

lunamoth wrote

"What is somewhat confusing is that Baha'u'llah's brother was actually given stewardship of the faithful for some time after the Bab's death. Baha'i history shows that the brother was totally not fit for leadership of the believers and did not display the character you'd associate with a Manifestation of God, while Baha'u'llah did."

The Bab was cruelly executed after a mock trial in Tabriz in July, 1850. After six years of oppression the Babi community was disorganized and had lost many of the earlier leaders as they were being slaughtered by the Shah's armies and executioners.

Baha'u'llah's younger half-brother was Mirza Yahya and he was the nominee of the Bab to decide the affairs of the Babi community. Mirza Yahya was not "Him Whom God would make manifest".

As head of the community Mirza Yahya was in hiding much of the time and feared that he would be imprisoned. He thus disguised himself and ordered that no one was to hail him or address him as such.

Meanwhile Baha'u'llah was Himself imprisoned in the Siyyah Chal prison in Teheran after an abortive attempt by a few crazed Babis to assassinate the Shah. Baha'u'llah basically turned Himself in and attempted to leave no doubt that He Himself had never authorized this attempt.

Later He was exiled by the Shah to Bagdad and His half-brotehr, still in disguise followed along after Him. The Babi community again floundered and lacked anyone to provide the effective leadership. Baha'u'llah withdrew Himself to the mountains of Sulleymaniyih in what is today Kurdish, Iraq. eventually He retrurned.

In 1863 on the instigation of the Persian government Baha'u'llah was again exiled to Constantinople as it was felt He was too close to the Shrines of Shiah pilgrimage. It was in the Ridwan Garden along the Tigris as Baha'u'llah and His party were enroute to Constantinople that He declared Himself to be Him "Whom God would make manifest" promised by the Bab.

Mirza Yahya was jealous of Baha'u'llah and attempted to refute His claim but the vast majority of Babis recognized Baha'u'llah as "Him Whom God would make manifest" promised by the Bab. The followers of Baha'u'llah then became known as Baha'is while those who didn't became known as Azalis. There were also a few other Babi fragmented groups.

In the course of time, the Baha'is still recognize the Bab as a Manifestation of God and His authenticated Writings are accepted as directly inspired Writings, however many of the ordinances of the Bab have been abrogated by Baha'u'llah...

Luna moth:

The very short period of time between two Manifestations of God is confusing to me as well, although Baha'i interpretation of prophesy is that two (twin)Manifestations are expected at the Return of Christ/Messiah not only in Christianity but also in Judaism, Islam and (I think) Buddhism.

My response:

As mentioned earlier, the relatively short mission of the Bab prepared the way we believe for Baha'u'llah.

The Twin Manifestations:

In Islamic prophecy this we believe this was foretold:

"one of the most explicit traditions regarding the appearance of the Mahdi and the return of the Messiah, the Spirit of God, as quoted in the Futuhatal-Makkiyyah of the renowned Muhyi'd-Din Ibna'l-'Arabi, wherein the Prophet said:

By God Who sent me as a Prophet in truth, were it that only one day remained for the world, God would prolong that day until my son the Mahdi would have come forth and the Spirit of God would have come down and perform prayers behind him (i.e. the Mahdi), and His Sovereignty would have enveloped the East and the West."

Source:

http://www.bahai-library.com/books/a...t.quran/3.html

In the Bible we Baha'is believe referrences to the coming of the Son of Man refer more to the Bab while Baha'u'llah is regarded as the "Glory of the Father":

"the Son of Man [coming] in the Glory of His Father" (Matt. 16:24)

And the read the following:

Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His
most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous... This is the day whereon
the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most
High, saying: ´Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!...'
My body longeth for the cross, and Mine head waiteth the thrust of the spear, in the path of the All-Merciful,
that the world may be purged from its transgressions..."

- Bahá´u´lláh, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day Is Come 32

- Art

[arthra]

By way of an addendum to my previous post the following is added regarding the schooling available to Baha'u'llah:

"Bahá'u'lláh received an elementary education during His childhood in Tihran. The nobility of those days usually employed the services of a teacher at home to tutor their children. The main subjects were calligraphy, the study of the Qur'án and the works of the Persian poets. This type of schooling ended after only a few years when the child was in his early teens. Bahá'u'lláh's education did not go further than this."

- Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, p. 19



He Himself testifies in His Tablet to Násiri'd-Dín Sháh that He did not attend any school in His life:

"The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely."

The schools He referred to were theological schools or Madrasas:

"Madrasas first emerged in South Asia under the patronage of medeival Muslim rulers, who sought to create a class of clerics to interpret Islamic tradition in ways that suited statecraft. From then till now these institutions have persisted with a curriculum that has seen few changes. The Islam they teach leaves little room for creative interpretation..."

Source:

http://www.himalmag.com/november2001/essay.htm


Education in the Persian Empire at the time needed modernization:

"From 1848-1852, the young Naser al-Din’s government was dominated by the personality of his Prime Minister, Mirza Taqi Khan Amir Kabir (d.1852). Amir Kabir’s brief time at the pinnacle of the Qajar bureaucracy reflected his ambition to modernize and centralize government.

It was during his tenure as Prime Minister that a technical school modelled on Ottoman examples of education reform was established in Tehran and with it, a government- printing house. The school, called the Dar al-Fonun, was intended to train modern officials for the bureaucracy and officers for a new military: eventually it became one of a number of government colleges consolidated as the University of Tehran in 1935."

- From "The Statement of Purpose’ of an Early Official Gazette in Qajar Iran, 1851" Camron Michael Ami Preface

[Abogado del Diablo]

I'm really digging Baha'i the more I read about it. I see it as pretty consistent with and complementary to Christianity. They aren't in conflict. The only conflict must be in the person perceiving it.

[Postmaster]

First time round Christ disappeared off the face of the planet after his resurrection, until present there is no evidence that he even had any children or in fact had a wife. Baha'u'llah died a natural death, he had 3 wives and many children that died before even reaching adult hood... There is something not right about this faith, Baha'u'llah claimed he didn't want his miracles documented, however miracles are a sign of an authorities figure sent by God or preaches for God, so documentation is in need, even mother Teresa performed miracles in the name of Christianity, that was well into the establishment of Baha'i. From a Christian point of view, Baha'i faith is false. Baha'i faith claims to preach equality between men and women, however the faith doesn't even have a symbolic female figure like Christianity does... Our Virgin lady.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

From a Christian point of view, Baha'i faith is false. Baha'i faith claims to preach equality between men and women, however the faith doesn't even have a symbolic female figure like Christianity does... Our Virgin lady.

More accurately, from the point of view of some Christians it may be. But I find my understanding of Christianity to be compatible with Baha'i.

As a sidenote, maintstream Christianity claiming to be "more" of a truth because it emphasizes "a female figure" seems a little odd, considering its history.

[Postmaster]

Art

John said that Christ was greater then him and he also said that he was "the lamb of God" In view of Christianity, John was one of Gods prophets, however he was not Gods son he was a human worker of God as all prophets before Christ and may I say after.. Islam totally spun everything round in terms of Christian theological views. We all work for God and we all have him in us, but Jesus really had a big chunk of him. He showed his Authority with the miracles performed and are still being performed today by Chrstianity.

That's why the bible made a big deal out of false prophet's because they understood there is only one Jesus and he really was the son of God, always has been and always will be. I'm open minded I was willing to accpet that I might end up being a Baha'i one day, but to understand what your doing, you really have to take it up in your heart to truely understand Christianity.

Baha'i says you can't drink alcohol yet Nicotine is allowed. It also says you have to point in a certain direction to pray... I'd have to say in a prophetic view Baha'i faith is excellent because it's done away with some negative aspects of Islam, however, in a greater sense, there is no greater then Christ, the son of God. That's why in view of Christianity after John the Bapist every other worker of God was known as a saint "He Who comes after me ranks before me..." The last TRUE prophet of the world.. Christianity has a strong future ahead, or untill the end of the world, just is down to us humans to choose our fate and not to forget that evil exists.

[arthra]

Postmaster:

We've gone over this material before and i see no reason to cover the same ground as before... You can review the posts over at the Baha'i forum there. We Baha'is will never put down Christianity or the Bible or Jesus Christ and you can remain a Christian as long as you wish.

One point you raised i think should be responded to because I thin it may deserve some explanation:

"Baha'i says you can't drink alcohol yet Nicotine is allowed. It also says you have to point in a certain direction to pray..."

That Baha'is don't drink alcohol is true and you knew this from before... Any drug that has caused as much damage to humankind such as alcohol is not permitted for Baha'is.

Smoking was also forbidden by the Bab but in the years of persecution, Moslems would use this as a way of identifying followers of the Bab. If they refused a cigarette or to smoke they were under suspicion and once you were suspected it was certain death... The Baha'i dispensation allows smoking but it is not encouraged. Abdul-Baha addressed this topic:

"Among these latter is smoking tobacco, which is dirty, smelly, offensive--an evil habit, and one the harmfulness of which gradually becometh apparent to all. Every qualified physician hath ruled--and this hath also been proven by tests--that one of the components of tobacco is a deadly poison, and that the smoker is vulnerable to many and various diseases. This is why smoking hath been plainly set forth as repugnant from the standpoint of hygiene.

"The Báb, at the outset of His mission, explicitly prohibited tobacco, and the friends one and all abandoned its use. But since those were times when dissimulation was permitted, and every individual who abstained from smoking was exposed to harassment, abuse and even death --the friends, in order not to advertise their beliefs, would smoke. Later on, the Book of Aqdas was revealed, and since smoking tobacco was not specifically forbidden there, the believers did not give it up. The Blessed Beauty, however, always expressed repugnance for it, and although, in the early days, there were reasons why He would smoke a little tobacco, in time He completely renounced it, and those sanctified souls who followed Him in all things also abandoned its use."

Source:

http://www.bahai-library.com/writing.../swab/129.html

So while smoking is allowed it is looked down upon.

Finally you mention "It also says you have to point in a certain direction to pray..." Actually Baha'is do face a "certain direction" for special prayers called Obligatory Prayers that are said daily. We face the Holy Land. In the Bible believers also faced Jerusalem in prayer so facing a certain direction in prayer is I think supported by scripture:

"When Daniel... retired to his house. The windows of his upstairs room faced toward Jerusalem. Three times each day he continued to fall on his knees, praying and giving praise to God as he had always done."

- Daniel 6:10-11

Baha'is face the Holy Land and one of our prayers can be said three times a day morning, noon and evening.

- Art

[Postmaster]

Art I very much appreciate your posts, to be honest I post like this because I'm trying to justify my belief in Christianity by looking at other faiths in a cynical fashion. I suppose that's the foundation Christianity was built on, Cynical philosophies probably because we do live in a Cynical world. I pointed out this connection in the Christianity forum earlier... The Cynics were ancient Greek philosopher that spoke of all the evils and negatives in society... Can you imagine that they probably couldn't have said anything negative about Christ? His birth to life style to death was the subject of the most amazing events anyone could ever experience and proved the world of his Godly authority. And untill now the world hasn't had anything like it, that is not subject to lesser or equal Cynical response. Christ came to sacrifice he didn't come to gain.. Islam gained an empire.

[lunamoth]

Good fruit from Baha'i quotes about religion:

CX. The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 215)

Jesus Christ knew this would come to pass and was content to suffer. His abasement was His glorification; His crown of thorns, a heavenly diadem. When they pressed it upon His blessed head and spat in His beautiful face, they laid the foundation of His everlasting Kingdom. He still reigns, while they and their names have become lost and unknown. He is eternal and glorious; they are nonexistent. They sought to destroy Him, but they destroyed themselves and increased the intensity of His flame by the winds of their opposition.

Through His death and teachings we have entered into His Kingdom. His essential teaching was the unity of mankind and the attainment of supreme human virtues through love. He came to establish the Kingdom of peace and everlasting life. Can you find in His words any justification for discord and enmity? The purpose of His life and the glory of His death were to set mankind free from the sins of strife, war and bloodshed.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 5)

When the Messianic star of Jesus Christ dawned, He declared He had come to gather together the lost tribes or scattered sheep of Moses. He not only shepherded the flock of Israel but brought together people of Chaldea, Egypt, Syria, ancient Assyria and Phoenicia. These people were in a state of utmost hostility, thirsting for the blood of each other with the ferocity of animals; but Jesus Christ brought them together, cemented and united them in His Cause and established such a bond of love among them that enmity and warfare were abandoned. It is evident, therefore, that the divine teachings are intended to create a bond of unity in the human world and establish the foundations of love and fellowship among mankind. Divine religion is not a cause for discord and disagreement. If religion becomes the source of antagonism and strife, the absence of religion is to be preferred. Religion is meant to be the quickening life of the body politic; if it be the cause of death to humanity, its nonexistence would be a blessing and benefit to man. Therefore, in this day the divine teachings must be sought, for they are the remedies for the present conditions of the world of humanity. The purpose of a remedy is to heal and cure. If it be productive of worse symptoms, its absence or discontinuance is preferable.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 117)

peace,
lunamoth

[lunamoth]

I agree wit Art and the others above, C vs. B is not really the right way to look at it.

peace,
lunamoth

[Postmaster]

Baha'u'llah was a beautiful philosopher and he said beautiful words, every one loves an optimist, he was a beautiful man, however it's too perfect, I view life as a Process not a progress. Modern society and living has bought to us just as many problems as it has cured... Cynical view? Yes... Cynical society? Yes.. Evil exists? Yes... Tollorence of different people? Same as it was thousands of years ago.. Wars? Same as they were thousands of years ago, always has been always will be. You can choose to take a different path of unity and peace just as people have been doing for thousands of years and people will continue to be greedy for money and power just as they have for thousands of years.. The baha'i faith won't change anything, only create an other division as part of the natural human cycle..

God sent us his son and people turn there backs to things they want to hear instead of what they have to hear.