Christianity and Judaism

[Cerealkiller]

Perhaps this is a topic already posted somewhere within this thread that I have merely missed, if that is the case my apologies.



I have spent the last 10 years or so of my life wrestling with an issue that I believe is central to Christianity. This issue is the, for lack of a better term, "Jewishness" of Jesus. What I ponder and debate endlessly in my mind is this: how Jewish should a Christian be? It would seem from reading the Gospels that Jesus did not intend to completely subvert Judaism,a nd yet so many modern Christian churches have no interest in this part of their faith. So what I ask is, should Christians identify themselves as being also Jewish? Does it even make sense to do that? Can a person truly be both? What was Jesus's intention anyway?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Cerealkiller

Perhaps this is a topic already posted somewhere within this thread that I have merely missed, if that is the case my apologies.



I have spent the last 10 years or so of my life wrestling with an issue that I believe is central to Christianity. This issue is the, for lack of a better term, "Jewishness" of Jesus. What I ponder and debate endlessly in my mind is this: how Jewish should a Christian be? It would seem from reading the Gospels that Jesus did not intend to completely subvert Judaism,a nd yet so many modern Christian churches have no interest in this part of their faith. So what I ask is, should Christians identify themselves as being also Jewish? Does it even make sense to do that? Can a person truly be both? What was Jesus's intention anyway?

I think you can be both. Or so I feel I am both. There is a little church near me that just started with about 40 members who are Jews for Jesus & I can tell you right now, they do not follow all the things that have been passed down to generations for centuries. (Jewish or Christian)
You would be very suprized at how many things my church keeps & teaches that are Jewish, yet it is a Christian Church. I know what you are speaking of is a rare thing to find.
You would love the 'mock' tabernacle in the wilderness our church has built & the huge muros & paintings showing the timeline of man.

I think Jesus' intentions were to bring man back into loving favor with God, that which was lost through Adam.
Once you get it, Don't let go of it.
God will not forsake his people, wether Jew or Gentile.

[path_of_one]

I'm currently reading a very interesting book on this subject- "Liberating the Gospels" by Spong, a retired Episcopal bishop. I imagine it'd be really controversial among more conservative/fundamental Christians, but I'm finding it fascinating and enlightening. It discusses the gospels as early Jewish liturgical books for Jews who believed they encountered God in Jesus.

As for how Jewish us non-Jewish Christians should be, that's a tough question to answer. I like my heritage and ancestors. I don't believe there was anything wrong or inferior about them, and I prefer to remain a Gentile Celtic/Norwegian/Euro-mutt. I believe Jesus came, as is written in the gospels, for the Jewish people, but that he is accessible to all of us. I don't think we have to become Jewish to have Jesus as our Savior, but we certainly can, just as Gentiles could convert before Jesus' time as well. I prefer to keep being Gentile and yet follow Christ. As one early Celtic priest put it, "Christ is my Druid." And so I follow Jesus, while also honoring my own unique heritage.

[InLove]

I would like to read that book, Path. Sounds interesting.

Without a doubt (to me, anyway), Jesus was Jewish. The term "chosen people" is often fiercely debated, in my opinion, because people misunderstand why God distinguished them in this way. (Of course, my opinion on this comes from a belief that I can trust Scripture--and I realize not everyone believes this way.) I believe that it was to preserve the bloodline for the Messiah, the Christ. When Christ allowed Himself to be sacrificed, then the physical bloodline became a spiritual "bloodline" which then allowed an opportunity for both Jews and Gentiles to then be "chosen" of God.

There are many Messianic Jews who believe that it is totally possible to continue being Jewish as well as Christian. In fact, many believe it fulfills them, as Christ is seen as the fulfillment of the Spirit of the Law. As a Gentile (as far as I know--even though if we are all born of Adam, then...well...that's another discussion, I guess), I do not feel the need to observe all of Jewish customs and such, but I wonder if it might not be a blessing to me if I learned more about them.

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

Cerialkiller,

Here is a website you might find interesting (hope posting this is okay with admin.) I have not looked at it in great depth, but it looks helpful.

http://www.messianic-literary.com/

InPeace,
InLove

[Dor]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I'm currently reading a very interesting book on this subject- "Liberating the Gospels" by Spong, a retired Episcopal bishop. I imagine it'd be really controversial among more conservative/fundamental Christians, but I'm finding it fascinating and enlightening.

That is probably cause he is about as far from Christianity as you can get and still hold on to the name in any sense.

[path_of_one]

That is your opinion, as a more conservative Christian. If you would, please explain how the evidence for the gospels as liturgy is incorrect? I am really interested in all sides of this issue. What evidence is there that the gospels were written specifically as eyewitness accounts, and were meant to be read that way by later Christians? What evidence is there that the Bible in general were written to be read literally? Certainly, the Jewish tradition was always concerned with the interpretation of Torah, and had its non-literalists as well. So it isn't as if the tradition of reading sacred text for meaning rather than literal content is a new one.

I believe what Spong is arguing is not that these events did not happen, but rather that:
1. The historical Jesus is a mystery. There is just as much evidence that the gospels are symbolic writing (if not more) as the tradition of thought that maintains that they are literal, eyewitness accounts. There is a lot of debate among scholars about who the historical Jesus was; the truth is that he didn't write anything down, so we can't know empirically. It's up to us (with aid of the Holy Spirit) to construct how we think about the historical Jesus and what was written about him decades and even generations after his death.
2. There is a deep, symbolic, and spiritually enlightening message in the gospels. The people who wrote the gospels believed that God was in Jesus, and sought to convey this truth in the manner Jewish religious texts/commentaries on Torah are typically written because they were Jewish. The NT points to a deep truth about the experience of Jesus and salvation, and it is not necessary to take it literally to grasp this truth. The mythic (symbolic, sacred narrative) aspects of the gospels are beautiful and timeless, and point to experience of God. We need to get beyond the question of "Did this happen?" and into the realm of "What does this all mean?"

Personally, it really doesn't matter to me whether or not everything in the gospels is accurate. I'm not concerned with accuracy in my walk with God, I'm concerned about validity. It's about the deeper experience of God to me, not about the details- was Mary a virgin? Did Jesus walk on water? Did a flood really cover the earth? Creation in seven 24 hour days? These are details that just don't matter to me. It's the message behind the story, behind the details, that matters to me.

I appreciate any discussion you have on this book, but to simply make a judgment of this Episcopal bishop, as well as those who are of the more liberal/symbolic bent in Christianity, is not very helpful. I've heard the judgments from the conservative/fundamental folks before. I don't think that they have the sole ownership of defining what is Christian and what is not. Christianity has always been diverse, and I don't think it can or should be reduced to what one group believes is the core essentials, ignoring the rich traditions of others.

[bananabrain]

What I ponder and debate endlessly in my mind is this: how Jewish should a Christian be?

there are really two questions to this. one is "how jewish should a christian be?" and the other is "how jewish should a non-jew be?" from a jewish perspective, there are two answers, depending on whether you see whether there are two questions or not.

the first really is about whether, from a jewish PoV, there is a difference between a christian and another non-jew. the short answer is "not in terms of religious obligations" - namely that both are equally obliged to observe the seven noahide laws (see http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm for details). in reality, of course, the question is more nuanced - we ought (and often do) expect more "jewish" behaviour from christians and muslims in particular. however, in terms of the strict requirements, no more is required. nonetheless, a strict observance of the noahide laws can actually be fairly stringent if one chooses to make it so.

the second question, then, becomes one of whether a given christian or church has taken on an *extra* obligation according to our way of thinking. from my perspective (and you'll appreciate that i'm not a religious expert) i would say that there are some people who have taken on what they term "the observance of the 'old testament'" as a religious obligation. this, of course, can sometimes be helpful and other times can be problematic, simply because from our PoV, the written Law cannot be separated (and indeed doesn't really make sense without) the oral Law, which area of knowledge is not normally within the study of christians - and by the time you include both, you are effectively converting to judaism; which i suppose brings us to jesus.

It would seem from reading the Gospels that Jesus did not intend to completely subvert Judaism

i am always intrigued by the remark he made about not coming "to change even a letter of the Law" - i often wonder how this can be reconciled with the idea that he "replaced" or "fulfilled" it, which is not an idea i or other jews are able to accept. the only spin on it we could accept is the idea that he replaced it for *non-jews* - but even that doesn't really make sense if it wasn't necessary for non-jews in the first place, which it wasn't. there are places where he is shown attacking the contemporary religious status quo - obviously, some of thse cannot be excused from a jewish point of view, like publicly desecrating the Sabbath for a reason other than saving a human life, but many of them can be used as teaching stories which might not have sat amiss on our own sages.

should Christians identify themselves as being also Jewish? Does it even make sense to do that? Can a person truly be both? What was Jesus's intention anyway?

and this, i suppose brings us to the question of the so-called "messianic jews". here, i can state quite definitively and clearly:

"MESSIANIC JEWS" ARE CHRISTIANS.

personally, i don't have a problem with christians. i don't see why anybody should be ashamed of calling themself a christian. what i object to is the *offensive dishonesty* - at least in terms of this day and age - of passing themselves off as jews. a jew who considers jesus the messiah remains a jew, but has become a heretic and an apostate. this remains the case whether he formally converts to christianity or not. the only way one leaves judaism is, as it were, feet first. what really upsets us is the fact that the so-called "jews for jesus" were set up and continue to be funded by CHURCHES. they are nothing more than "stealth evangelism" - a mission to the jews. their mission is nothing more than that. the antimissionary site http://www.jewsforjudaism.org have a good set of resources exposing the lies and hypocrisy of this tactic:

http://www.google.com/u/JewsforJudai...forjudaism.org

in other words, not even the early church fathers were "messianic jews" like this. and at least they were honest about what they wanted. messianic jews are a *problem*, not a solution to this particular question.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[dauer]

Very well stated, bb. I just want to amend that jews4judaism is not anti-missionary. They don't want to rid the world of missionaries. They are counter-missionary. Their goal is to protect Jews from missionaries through education and the use of things like those de-programming experts often deployed after a person has been absorbed into a cult.

Dauer

[Cerealkiller]

The Jews for Jesus has been one of those groups that really frustrates me when I try to sort out this issue. I really hate the idea of using the word Jewish to hide intentions.


I think part of why this issue concerns me, and probably part of why it seems complicated to me, is that racially I am Jewish. My ancestors were German Jews who moved to the US in the late 20's early 30's and by the time my mom gave birth to me she had been completely "assimilated" into Christian culture. So I grew up Christian, and discovered my heritage when I was about 14. Since then I have been somewhat confused about where exactly that places me in the whole scheme of things with God and what-not. I still consider myself Christian, but the more I learn of Judaism the more it seems that Christianity is missing out on a very rich history that it should be in touch with.

[path_of_one]

Thank you very much for the insightful commentary and links, BB. I always find it fascinating that many Christians are fixated on the ten commandments, rather than either the 7 Noahide laws or the 613 mitzvot. It doesn't really make sense to me why this is. Furthermore, I find it enlightening that the Jews have both written and oral law to complement one another. I find it interesting that my beliefs, generated by my intuitive grasp of the Christian Biblical scriptures and my relationship with God, while often considered strange or heretical to many Christians, are very much in line with Jewish beliefs. Having never studied Judaism much, I'm finding my bit of exploration fascinating, because so much is in line with my own beliefs.

Originally Posted by Cerealkiller

I still consider myself Christian, but the more I learn of Judaism the more it seems that Christianity is missing out on a very rich history that it should be in touch with.

I agree. I'm not very well-versed in Judaism, but the bit I've been reading is really interesting, and presents a very rich and deep tradition and relationship with God. It provides a lot of food for thought for Christians, because so much of what many of us take for granted as being "Jewish," isn't. Or is inaccurate or incomplete. For example, I have heard in numerous churches the idea that the OT Jewish God is wrathful, demands perfection (and thus the need for the sacrificial lamb), is separated from humanity, etc. I've heard it presented many times that Judaism is legalistic, and isn't focused on a personal relationship with God. Then I talked to some Jews I know and read a bit and find out that this isn't how it is at all. The Jewish God is just, yes, and also forgiving. The Jewish God is not anthropomorphic and is not literally a "He." The law is not a chain around Jews' necks, it is a gift, and many Jews have very deep relationships with God. In short, a lot of pastors I've heard are basing their discussion of the OT and NT, of the very purpose of Christ, on inaccurate assumptions and stereotypes. I could write a small novel on the inaccuracies I've discovered so far, and the significance they have for our understanding of the message of Jesus.

I follow Jesus' teachings because they resonate with me. But I feel it is very appropriate to study Judaism in order to better understand the culture, religion, and history from which Jesus came in order to better understand his life and message, the scriptures, and to address the discrepancies between modern Christian doctrine (as it has been informed by far more than Judaic roots and the gospels) and Jewish beliefs. Each of us can then make an informed choice about how to reconcile the two.

[Faithfulservant]

So I have a question...If an African is a Christian isnt he also an African? Or if the problem is not with the culture.. It could be religion.. You have religions all over the world that are branched off of other religions. For example when Protestantism branched off of Catholism.. they are both still valid religions. Messianic Jews have not only embraced the Torah.. but they have embraced the NT as coming from G-d. How come Jews cannot accept that the Messianic Jews believe that the Messiah has already come whereas the Jews believe that He is still to come? They have obviously branched off from Judaism and cannot be considered apart of Judaism and I think that people should try not to be offended by the title of Messianic Jew since that is how they choose to refer to themselves.

[Cerealkiller]

I think Messianic Jew is kind of like Gnostic Christian. To a mainstream Christian Gnostics aren't Christian at all; they are heretics. But thats the thing about heresy, to the mainstream it is so clearly heresey, to the heretic it is simply truth.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bananabrain!

At least now I understand better why you bristle at the mention of the term "Messianic Jew."

[Amica]

I am confused at times between the relationship of Judaism and Christianity...
It seems that Christians hold to Judaism as the earlier version of their faith by reminding everyone of Jesus being a Jew. Yet, the two faiths collide in their understanding of The God.
Jews belive in One God, Christians assume that God is a Trinity. On top of that, Christians claim Jesus to be 'a son of God' or having a divine origin, whereas Jews do not even recognize him as a Messiah.
A lot of the laws from the Old Testament do not seem to be followed today among the Jews to the fullest, and yet Christians mostly disregard them in whole.
I wish this post was posted in the Judaism section of the forum, so that I can see how Jews see the relationship between Christianity and Judaism. But I am also interested in Christian responses about these two faiths. I personally see them separate, because I do not believe Jews and Christians believe in the same God.