Christianity and Judaism

[Quahom1]

Agreed,

This is a fascinating and enlightening point/counter point that should continue (I certainly look forward to reading more). However I think it would be best served as presented in the Comparitive Studies forum.

v/r

Q

[Faithfulservant]

I believe that the two faiths believe that they worship the same God... Christians believe that the Jews have not accepted that the Messiah has already come and is one part of the trinity.. the Jews believe that we worship Jesus falsly and that the Messiah is still to come and will be just a man and there is no trinity...they also believe that the Torah was written specifically for them and that the NT is not valid to them. I also believe that one day we will all be in agreement one way or another.

We both worship the G-d of the OT. YHWH, Elohim, El Shaddai, El Elyon, Adonai, Jehovah Nissi, Jehovah-Raah, Jehovah-Rapha, Jehovah-Shammah, Jehovah Tsidkenu, Jehovah Mekkodishkem, El Olam, Jehovah Jireh, Jehovah-Shalom, Jehovah Sabaoth.

[InLove]

Christianity is related to Judaism (or separated from it) because both look to the Messiah. Christians believe the Messiah has come and will come again--Jews look for Him to come.

Amica--I have wanted to ask you for a while--and please, this is in a peaceful nature--you seem to have such a problem with the concept of "Trinity". It seems you believe that Christians are polytheists. But let me ask you this: would you limit Allah? Is He not everywhere and all things? Can He not function in a million capacities, and all out of His love? The Spirit which led the Israelites, and had holy love and mercy toward all the descendents of Abraham is the same Spirit of the Law that Christians call Jesus, and the Word. What you don't understand is that Jesus is not just a man to Christians, but we thank God that he was.

The term, "the Trinity" was submitted by a man--I don't even know his name. But the Spirit of God existed way before the term came into existence. It existed from the beginning. That is how I understand things, and I don't think it is so far away from how you see things.

Forgive me, admin and everyone, if I have posted this where I shouldn't have. But it got said.

InPeace,
InLove

[bananabrain]

I think part of why this issue concerns me, and probably part of why it seems complicated to me, is that racially I am Jewish. My ancestors were German Jews who moved to the US in the late 20's early 30's and by the time my mom gave birth to me she had been completely "assimilated" into Christian culture.

you know, cerealkiller, that if your mother is jewish then you are also jewish? if you want to talk about this further with me, send me a PM.

I always find it fascinating that many Christians are fixated on the ten commandments, rather than either the 7 Noahide laws or the 613 mitzvot. It doesn't really make sense to me why this is.

i would say that on one hand they've heard of the ten, but not of the seven or the 613. of course, there's also a way to derive all the 613 from the ten - half of the ten being between humans and the Divine and the rest between humans and other humans.

an interesting little piece of gematria, incidentally - the quintessential convert to judaism is ruth, whose name is numerically equivalent to 606. by converting, she added 606 new commandments to her original 7, thus making 613!

For example, I have heard in numerous churches the idea that the OT Jewish G!D is wrathful, demands perfection (and thus the need for the sacrificial lamb), is separated from humanity, etc. I've heard it presented many times that Judaism is legalistic, and isn't focused on a personal relationship with G!D. Then I talked to some Jews I know and read a bit and find out that this isn't how it is at all.

good to hear that people aren't just believing the sloppy, self-justificatory thinking that is peddled in more chauvinistic quarters.

I could write a small novel on the inaccuracies I've discovered so far, and the significance they have for our understanding of the message of Jesus.

oh, for sure. i seem to remember writing something (might have been here) on how the parable of the "good samaritan" has a completely different message if you are aware of some of the legal issues germane to that situation - something which i am convinced that jesus would have been familiar with, even if his audience wasn't.

Messianic Jews have not only embraced the Torah.. but they have embraced the NT as coming from G!D. How come Jews cannot accept that the Messianic Jews believe that the Messiah has already come whereas the Jews believe that He is still to come?

the point is that they weren't jewish in the first place. they were set up specifically from a christian perspective, with the sole aim of converting jews. and, from our PoV, the idea that we need converting or saving by christians is both laughable and offensive, given the past relationship the various churches have had with judaism, quite aside from the fact that jesus is, from our perspective, demonstrably *not* the Messiah.

look, i don't have a problem referring to the NT, or the Qur'an, or the Guru Granth Sahib for that matter, as holy books which have in some sense "come from G!D". it's not especially controversial, nor does it detract from the holiness of the Torah. i believe Torah stands on its own merits as a text and does not require 'fulfilment' or 'decorruption'. the problem is that these people say that *jesus* is the *jewish Messiah*.

They have obviously branched off from Judaism and cannot be considered part of Judaism and I think that people should try not to be offended by the title of Messianic Jew since that is how they choose to refer to themselves

we can't agree with that any more than we can agree that caligula, xerxes, bar kochba, shabbetai tzvi, jacob frank or the late lubavitcher rebbe z"l were the jewish Messiah for the simple fact that they *don't fulfil the criteria required*. it is quite simply fraudulent for someone to claim, from a *jewish perspective*, that jesus did so. if you want to claim that jesus is a path to G!D, fair enough, that's manifestly the case. if you want to claim that he was more than a man and that his mother was a virgin, you are entitled to do so - that is an unprovable matter for belief and a foundation for theological speculation. but in terms of his Messiahship, the criteria are not met from our criteria - period. to claim, as this group does, that he is the jewish Messiah is intellectually dishonest and theologically bogus and they have no other reason for doing so other than to convince other jews to follow them. their entire raison d'etre is to subvert judaism and for this reason it cannot be borne. and as a personal aside, i don't understand the point of sending the Messiah twice.

A lot of the laws from the Old Testament do not seem to be followed today among the Jews to the fullest, and yet Christians mostly disregard them in whole.

amica, they may not be followed today by many jews, but *absolutely all of them* remain valid and binding, even the ones which we can no longer fulfil in the original form. if you have a particular example in mind, i can try and explain to you how it is observed today!

I personally see them separate, because I do not believe Jews and Christians believe in the same G!D.

as a jew and, moreover, in the light of what i have previously written, i can tell you that i believe strongly (and am supported in this by normative jewish thought) that we consider that not only christians, but also muslims believe in the same G!D as us - although we may differ about how G!D is to be obeyed. of course, from our perspective, G!D does not include jesus in any special capacity other than as an exceptional and inspiring human being and a great teacher.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Bandit]

nothing worst than a Jew or Chrisitian who throws the book at each other & especially rejects them as a family member passing judgments & calling them heretics. We have one jewish family in our church & even an Arabian family & also an Afro-American family. Another Jewish lady I know at another church who was flat out rejected by her family because she accepts Jesus as Messiah. Very sad to see her cry when she tells the story & showed me the pictures of her family.

Some try to complicate everything, to the point of throwing people out of the boat as if they are going to drown unless they believe the exact same way.

[bananabrain]

nothing worse than a Jew or Christian who throws the book at each other

nothing worse? i can think of a lot worse. moreover, north american jewry has a 50% intermarriage rate. we are not large enough to support this. we have a serious demographic problem - and yet some people are still targeting us, evangelising us and trying to convert us to christianity. they ought to just leave us the hell alone. we have enough problems with hate and terrorism without this on top of it.

especially rejects them as a family member passing judgments & calling them heretics.

it is heretical for jewish people to believe jesus was the messiah. there's no way around this. it is also an attack on our future to convert us to christianity. what the buggery-bollocks is it with some christians that they feel compelled to go after us? are there not enough of them? hasn't enough harm been done in the past in the name of jesus that people have to kill our posterity by assimilating us into extinction? because that is what is at stake here - the survival of the jewish people, which is disappearing like the rainforest, unlike christianity or islam.

We have one jewish family in our church & even an Arabian family & also an Afro-American family. Another Jewish lady I know at another church who was flat out rejected by her family because she accepts Jesus as Messiah. Very sad to see her cry when she tells the story & showed me the pictures of her family.

look, i'm not condoning people who get all "jazz singer" and act as if their relative has died or stuff like that - in fact more often than not these people have converted because the parental commitment to judaism and the quality of their jewish education was so uninspiring and hidebound. but with all that, what exactly does she expect? we have been through 3000 years of wars, pogroms, inquisitions, suicide bombings, the Shoah and its denial and the present delegitimisation of our right to national self-determination - and for what? for someone to bring it to an end by just chucking it all away?

Some try to complicate everything, to the point of throwing people out of the boat as if they are going to drown unless they believe the exact same way.

complicated schmomplicated. i could say that by converting people to "believe the exact same way" is a form of cultural imperialism. why do some christians feel they have to impose their beliefs on us? i really don't mean offence, bandit, but one cannot be jewish and believe jesus was the messiah without doing irreperable harm to the jewish community - as jews for jesus have proved. get the fecking message - HANDS OFF OUR FUTURE.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

nothing worse? i can think of a lot worse. moreover, north american jewry has a 50% intermarriage rate....
bananabrain

You may be marrying into the Tribe of Manasseh...

v/r

Q

[bananabrain]

well, possibly. but probably not. i prefer not to take pot luck.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

it is heretical for jewish people to believe jesus was the messiah.

b'shalom

bananabrain

that is your belief & your opinion.
as for everything else you say, consider not hiding behind religion because in case you are not aware, Christians are far more persecuted to date around the world than any other religion on the planet, so stop complaining.

no one here targets you or any other to convert to anything & that is mumble jumble.
You are not the only one who likes to be left alone BB or the only one who is persecuted or attacked by terrorism.

Hands off the future?

no one chucks IT all away....people chuck each other all away over religion.
& so if a Jew or Christian wants to intermarry or they want to believe Jesus is the Messiah, or they choose not to, there is nothing anyone can do to stop them & vice versa... it is not so much about imposing-
People choose for themselves.

so yah- there is nothing worst than calling each other heretics over beliefs by throwing the book at each other & saying YOU ARE A HERETIC because you believe this. It creates complications, anomosity, strife & ...

I have been called a heretic by certain Christians my entire life over doctine & it runs like water off a ducks back now.

No offense given & none taken

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

well, possibly. but probably not. i prefer not to take pot luck.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Ouch!

[Faithfulservant]

I want to add my own thoughts but Im thinking better of it.. Well.. I just want to add one thing.. God wins in the end.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I want to add my own thoughts but Im thinking better of it.. Well.. I just want to add one thing.. God wins in the end.

I disagree. God has 6,000,000,000 of us, and He had 6,000,000,000 of us before. I think He wants us all, anything less would be a loss.

I think God hates to lose.

v/r

Q

[Faithfulservant]

hehe Q.. thats what Im saying.. God wins in the end.

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Bandit

that is your belief & your opinion.

you say this as if all beliefs and opinions are equally a) valid and b) well-informed. the definition of heresy is *relational* and determined by theology. one system's heretic is another system's orthodox believer. in the case of normative judaism - whether "orthodox" or "progressive", a belief that jesus was the jewish messiah is incompatible with both logic and practice. orthodoxy would define a jew who held this belief as a heretic and an apostate. progressives might not use those exact same terms, but they would certainly find it profoundly painful, traumatic and unacceptable. so yes, it is my belief and opinion, but it is also the belief of my entire community - this is the *one* thing we can all agree on.

as for everything else you say, consider not hiding behind religion because in case you are not aware, Christians are far more persecuted to date around the world than any other religion on the planet, so stop complaining.

"stop complaining"? i will stop "complaining" when you recognise that i am making a legitimate point - it is not "complaining" to point out that evangelistic practices are both unwelcome and offensive, particularly in the light of the history of the relationship between christianinty and judaism. secondly, i'm not entering into a game of "oh boo hoo, we're more persecuted than you", because it solves nothing. my point was simply that christians are not exactly on the 'endangered species' list - whereas we've not been off it for 2500 years and, frankly, are feeling particularly threatened at present.

no one here targets you or any other to convert to anything & that is mumble jumble.

i believe you mean mumbo-jumbo. i'm not talking about here - here we have moderators to deal with that. i'm talking about out there in the real world where these feckers are putting up billboards advertising jesus in front of local synagogues and handing out leaflets in jewish areas with the cheap little slogan "think for yourself" - as if judaism had no tradition of critical thought. it beggars belief - but they are aiming precisely to blur that line and ensnare the ignorant. what is more, they have a £15million budget to do it with, which not even our community has for our own continuity development!

no one chucks IT all away....people chuck each other all away over religion.

would you say the same thing if two people who were tempted "chucked each other all away over religion" because they were both married to different people? the idea that personal whim should dictate actions is a product of the european enlightenment, not of religious tradition.

it is not so much about imposing - People choose for themselves.

obviously people choose for themselves, but they can choose on the basis of an informed opinion and knowledge of the issues and implications - or they can be lied to and bamboozled by slick marketing. bad religion is no different from junk food.

I have been called a heretic by certain Christians my entire life over doctine & it runs like water off a ducks back now.

i'm not calling *you* a heretic. i am simply outlining how a belief that jesus was the jewish messiah is a heretical belief for a *jew*.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

"stop complaining"? i will stop "complaining" when you recognise that i am making a legitimate point - it is not "complaining" to point out that evangelistic practices are both unwelcome and offensive, particularly in the light of the history of the relationship between christianinty and judaism. secondly, i'm not entering into a game of "oh boo hoo, we're more persecuted than you", because it solves nothing. my point was simply that christians are not exactly on the 'endangered species' list - whereas we've not been off it for 2500 years and, frankly, are feeling particularly threatened at present.
b'shalom

bananabrain

kind of the same way some Jews complain about the manger scene & birth of Jesus being displayed at Christmas time & have wanted the law to stop it.

you keep waiting for messiah & I will stick with Jesus, now. the end of the book tells me there will be a remnant of the seed of israel.

whatever makes you happy there BB & i still love you reguardless of what you believe.