Christian Zen???

[earl]

Just ran across this book online-"Crossing Over Together: Walking the Zen Christian Path," by recently deceased Father Thomas Hand (was 1 of those liberal Jesuits ). Looked like such interesting material that thought I'd share it & heck you know me-love to examine how traditions that have no right getting together might . In fact, wasn't sure which forum to place it in as it could appeal to the comparative forum folk, folks from a tradition or we "traditionless" as well as this forum-heck you traditional Christians might even want to give it a peek. So for those of you interested in other ways of viewing traditional theological subjects, you'll probably enjoy this book. may it edify as much as it startles, earl

http://www.unm.edu/~jhayes/handokai.pdf

[InLove]

Maybe it's a mystic thing. But don't tell anyone.

[InLove]

earl--thanks for the link. That's what I meant to say. (I get carried away sometimes and say the wrong thing.) Reading....

InPeace,
InLove

[Nattering Nabob]

Don't know about Christian Zen but Christian meditation has been around for ages...the Orthodox Christian Desert Fathers promoted it since the first century or so A.D., they called it hesychasm. Middle Age monks wrote about it: the Cloud of Unknowing by Unknown, Interior Castle by Theresa of Avila. This century's offerings includes New Seeds of Contemplation by Thomas Merton...the list is pretty extensive.

I was actually shocked to see what a long and distinguished history that meditation has in Christian circles. Heck, Quakerism is nothing BUT meditation.

[Paladin]

The best of Merton yet: The Interior Life
You might have to read it more than once!

Peace
Mark

[17th Angel]

Zen, IS Zen, christian Zen? Nope... Just Zen.

[earl]

Actually, Seung Sahn, the contemporary zen roshi (& deceased-all the best Zen masters are dead ones ) in his book,"The Compass of Zen," makes the point that while the term "Zen" can be thought of relative to the school of "Zen," as zen is about realzing the nature of mind-"Zen mind," if you will-then in the latter sense no-"thing" can demarcate or distinguish it, that you cannot "brand name" it and is capable of being found in and through many ways. So he actually in discussing that used the phrase "Christian zen" to indicate that yes even Christians might realize this. So is "zen" Buddhist? Yes and no. earl

[Thomas]

Hi Nattering Nabob –
I was actually shocked to see what a long and distinguished history that meditation has in Christian circles.

I know. It's one of our 'secrets' ... meditation, contemplation ...

http://www.stolaf.edu/people/huff/cl...on/Essay.html:
"Outwardly, the practice of Zazen (sitting meditation) and Christian contemplative practice have much in common. Thomas Merton found during his trip to Asia that, while those concerned with theology of Zen and Christianity could find little common ground, the actual practice of the monks was remarkably compatible."
(my emphasis)

+++

Christian Spirituality in the 21st Century (article)
It is here that the split between philosophers and theologians and spiritual practitioners makes itself felt again. Christians vacillate about what to draw from the storehouse of Christian tradition in order to compare it to Zen. Should it be monasticism, or mysticism, or something else again? One popular choice by people on both sides has been Meister Eckhart. But why Meister Eckhart? Is it because of his Christian mystical doctrine that he shares with the church’s mystical tradition? I don’t think so. There is something in Meister Eckhart that resonates with Zen practitioners, and if we could focus upon it, it would give us a clue to the nature of Zen enlightenment and point to the one choice that is almost never considered as a suitable partner for the Zen-Christian dialogue, which is the metaphysics of Thomas Aquinas. It seems almost incomprehensible that a dynamic Zen Buddhism would have anything in common with a Thomism already in eclipse. Yet Zen is highly metaphysical, not, of course, in the traditional Western philosophical sense, but as a deep metaphysical insight into the ultimate nature of reality, an insight that is not turned to subsequent conceptual elaboration, but is geared to liberation or awakening from our delusive existential state.

This kind of metaphysical insight finds a counterpart in the living heart of the metaphysics of St. Thomas, in what Jacques Maritain called the intuition of being. Maritain, in fact, has already given us a penetrating explanation of Hindu mystical experience that could be adapted to help us understand the nature of Zen enlightenment...

... Unfortunately, this vital current of thought has remained virtually unknown in the English-speaking world and its application to the current Zen-Christian dialogue unexploited and, incidentally, the riddle of Meister Eckhart unsolved.

Our third conclusion: important philosophical and theological issues need to be resolved if Christian spirituality is ever to benefit as it could from Zen Buddhism. We need to situate Zen enlightenment in relationship to the metaphysics of St. Thomas and the mysticism of John of the Cross. This will allow us to avoid seeing Zen as a threat to Christianity, or facilely identifying Zen practice with the Christian life of prayer.

Thomas

[17th Angel]

?

As you say "branding" I don't think you can or need to brand name Zen, I am not saying christians cannot experience this but it's still just Zen....

You see a bee.... It's a bee, I see this bee is this now 17th bee? Or is it still just bee?

[earl]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Nattering Nabob –
I was actually shocked to see what a long and distinguished history that meditation has in Christian circles.

I know. It's one of our 'secrets' ... meditation, contemplation ...

http://www.stolaf.edu/people/huff/cl...on/Essay.html:
"Outwardly, the practice of Zazen (sitting meditation) and Christian contemplative practice have much in common. Thomas Merton found during his trip to Asia that, while those concerned with theology of Zen and Christianity could find little common ground, the actual practice of the monks was remarkably compatible."
(my emphasis)

+++

Christian Spirituality in the 21st Century (article)
It is here that the split between philosophers and theologians and spiritual practitioners makes itself felt again. Christians vacillate about what to draw from the storehouse of Christian tradition in order to compare it to Zen. Should it be monasticism, or mysticism, or something else again? One popular choice by people on both sides has been Meister Eckhart. But why Meister Eckhart? Is it because of his Christian mystical doctrine that he shares with the church’s mystical tradition? I don’t think so. There is something in Meister Eckhart that resonates with Zen practitioners, and if we could focus upon it, it would give us a clue to the nature of Zen enlightenment and point to the one choice that is almost never considered as a suitable partner for the Zen-Christian dialogue, which is the metaphysics of Thomas Aquinas. It seems almost incomprehensible that a dynamic Zen Buddhism would have anything in common with a Thomism already in eclipse. Yet Zen is highly metaphysical, not, of course, in the traditional Western philosophical sense, but as a deep metaphysical insight into the ultimate nature of reality, an insight that is not turned to subsequent conceptual elaboration, but is geared to liberation or awakening from our delusive existential state.

This kind of metaphysical insight finds a counterpart in the living heart of the metaphysics of St. Thomas, in what Jacques Maritain called the intuition of being. Maritain, in fact, has already given us a penetrating explanation of Hindu mystical experience that could be adapted to help us understand the nature of Zen enlightenment...

... Unfortunately, this vital current of thought has remained virtually unknown in the English-speaking world and its application to the current Zen-Christian dialogue unexploited and, incidentally, the riddle of Meister Eckhart unsolved.

Our third conclusion: important philosophical and theological issues need to be resolved if Christian spirituality is ever to benefit as it could from Zen Buddhism. We need to situate Zen enlightenment in relationship to the metaphysics of St. Thomas and the mysticism of John of the Cross. This will allow us to avoid seeing Zen as a threat to Christianity, or facilely identifying Zen practice with the Christian life of prayer.

Thomas

Hey Thomas-that looks familiar. was it from Jim Arraz's online book at his website innerexploration.com-"Christianity in the Crucible of East-west Dialogue?" I'd recently posted in some thread here a recommendation for both this book & his website. take care, earl

[earl]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

?

As you say "branding" I don't think you can or need to brand name Zen, I am not saying christians cannot experience this but it's still just Zen....

You see a bee.... It's a bee, I see this bee is this now 17th bee? Or is it still just bee?

Actually what I'm all about is seeing how so many ways/traditions can actually find their way to this unlimitable, unbranded realization. So guess I'm the opposite of "copy-writing" anything. I like to do that in my subversive(?) way to maybe not-so-subtly point out that part of the oft repeated phrase of "mystical core" at the heart of all religions entails at least in part just this realization, albeit packaged in different forms and names by the different traditions. You've outed me 17th earl

[17th Angel]

Sorry?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

?

As you say "branding" I don't think you can or need to brand name Zen, I am not saying christians cannot experience this but it's still just Zen....

You see a bee.... It's a bee, I see this bee is this now 17th bee? Or is it still just bee?

Is that anything like This?

Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and waters as waters. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and waters are not waters. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and waters once again as waters.-- Ch'uan Teng Lu, (The Way of Zen )

[Thomas]

Hey Earl –

Yes, it is! Hadn't heard of him before ... sorry I missed your link.

I've been reading elsewhere of the philosophy of language – looking at how we interpret religious experience, to ourselves and to others, so Arraz's phrase 'the intuition of being' strikes home ...

I explained it all to myself, last night, as I fell asleep ...

Thomas

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Is that anything like This?

;/