Christian Idolaters?

[Prober]

Does believing Jesus is God make a person an idolater?

[Thomas]

Nice question!
Catholic – so in my view – No – but bring on the iconoclast debate!

Here's a corollary:
There is a certain kind of modern Divine Image of Christ – I'm thinking especially of a print I've seen of Christ the Sacred Heart – in which he looks suspiciously like an Englishmans' idea of a Californian beach bum:
Sacred Heart of Jesus Photos
(second row, 1st pic)
Oh no! there's hundreds of 'em:
http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Chi...C12040326.jpeg

I really do not like that kind of image.

(Oh Lord, just suppose ... no, it doesn't bear thinking about ...)

Thomas

[wil]

Hmmm....response....I'm in the Judaism thread...I wonder why I am here?

But I'd say spending untold hours on one sabbath watching college football, or on another watching the professional game...I think that often many spend more time worshipping and focusing thought, prayers, and epithats at sports and ohther slime that oozes out on our living room floors...that becomes idol worship, and even another G-d for some...

I don't believe Jesus ever intended to be worshipped. Followed, learned from, yes...but not worshipped.

[dauer]

Hey Prober.

That's a question that's been debated for a very long time. One important thing to define first is the word idolatry. In Hebrew the term is actually avodah zara which means "strange/foreign worship/service" so it's a little more ambiguous than the english word. However, the general opinion today is that the worship of Jesus would be idolatry for a Jew, not for a Christian.

Dauer

[Prober]

Thanks.

Not being judgemental either way, just doing some thinking...

[Prober]

Okay, please help me with this. I'm asking for opinions...

Number 3 of the Noahide (sp) laws - if Christians that believe Jesus is God violate this one, how can they reach the "hereafter"?

Sincerely - I'm asking because we borrowed our tradition from you:

Can a fundamentalist Christian be "saved"?

Would it be better to convert or not to believe Jesus is God?

Please coment...

[bananabrain]

personally, i am extremely strict about my application of 'avodah zarah. considering that the penalties for a-z are severe and that the precautions for avoiding contact with "akum" (an acronym for "worshippers of the stars and planets") are extremely stringent, i am incredibly reluctant to consider anyone an idolater. if i were to consider christianity idolatrous, i would be unable to do business with, rent a house to, or even engage in discussion with a christian. this would, incidentally, put me in breach of my other obligation to abide by the "law of the land", which forbids discrimination. nonetheless, even such great sages as maimonides considered christianity idolatrous because of the trinity, although he is clearly as mistaken in this view as those who consider that the kabbalists "worship" the sefirot, G!D forbid. i personally prefer to put it down to the fact that he didn't actually know any christians apart from the hairy armoured nutters who were busy trying to reconquer iberia from the moors at the time - and although he concedes that islam is clearly monotheistic, he's still not terribly complimentary about it or muhammad. fortunately, he's not the authoritative view in these matters, which is apparently derived from that of the me'iri (C12th, france) that "idolatry is not a matter of statues". this not only lets catholics and eastern orthodox christians, but almost all hindus, buddhists and animists off the hook. personally, i hold that the prohibitions against idolatry are aimed at the hideous perversions of religion current in the ancient world, involving human and even child sacrifice, prostitution and orgiastic rites. in other words, if this isn't going on, it's almost certainly not what we mean by 'avodah zarah.

it is, however, unfortunate that christianity is still routinely taught to be 'avodah zarah in the mainstream yeshiva world. fortunately, the restrictions seem to be more or less ignored as far as business is concerned, probably on the grounds that "the Torah safeguards the livelihood of jews".

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Prober]

Thanks, B!

So Christians can slide on #3?

[Dondi]

i dunno. It seems that many of the teachings of Jesus are rabbinical, paricularly the central teaching of loving God and loving one's neighbor. If Jesus's purpose is to point us to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, I can't see how this could be idolatrous.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Prober

Does believing Jesus is God make a person an idolater?

Thats a good question, I think? As humans, we are already prone to idolatery. The essence of this particular sin is that we do things and love things that show we dont value or appricaite God above those things. And so God says to always put Him first, or to "have no other gods before me," or "Love your God with all your mind, strenght, soul, etc.," but we rearly do it. Jesus himself said, "If you dont love me more than your husband or wife or sister or brother, etc., you are not worthy of me." This brings me to your question. Jesus claims to be God and so to put Him first isnt idolatery, its right!

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Silas

Thats a good question, I think? As humans, we are already prone to idolatery. The essence of this particular sin is that we do things and love things that show we dont value or appricaite God above those things. And so God says to always put Him first, or to "have no other gods before me," or "Love your God with all your mind, strenght, soul, etc.," but we rearly do it. Jesus himself said, "If you dont love me more than your husband or wife or sister or brother, etc., you are not worthy of me." This brings me to your question. Jesus claims to be God and so to put Him first isnt idolatery, its right!

Remember where you are, Silas.

What if I claimed to be God? Putting me first wouldn't be idolatery, it's right? right?

Many people in history have claimed to be God. Which one should we worship? A person's claiming to be God does not make it so. One better back one's claim with more than an assertion.

[Cage]

I think idolotry is more about creating gods/carved images and such, and worshiping them as opposed to the one true G-d. If Jesus came, and did G-d's will then I don't think [honoring] him is an idolotrist act, but I sometimes wonder if [outright worship] is what he, or G-d wanted. Jesus never demanded worship, or even servitude. He only asked that we follow his lead, and Love G-d as well as our neighbors.

My aunt once siad I'd make a great Jew, lol! What is the Jewish view of the man named Jesus, anyway? Do you guys think we should honor, and perhaps follow his lead like the other prophets? Does the Jewish community think he deserve this much respect, or no? Obviously, I know little about what you believe, so...

[Prober] This has been on my mind for years now, and I fear viewing him as G-d, just as much as I fear not viewing him as G-d, lol! I'm a little mixed up when it comes to Jesus...


Love,

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Cage

[Prober] This has been on my mind for years now, and I fear viewing him as G-d, just as much as I fear not viewing him as G-d, lol! I'm a little mixed up when it comes to Jesus...

I feel the same way. It bothers me to think that we may have borrowed something from someone and distorted or perverted it. I feel really hesitant saying that because of my fundamentalist Christian conditioning.

I don't want to be closed minded and am willing to listen to other opinions, especially that of those who may be closer to the source...

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Prober

I feel the same way. It bothers me to think that we may have borrowed something from someone and distorted or perverted it. I feel really hesitant saying that because of my fundamentalist Christian conditioning.

I don't want to be closed minded and am willing to listen to other opinions, especially that of those who may be closer to the source...

A closed mind is a self created snare which inhibits all growth, imo. I stand firm on one or two issues, but only because I have found them to be be pure, and uncorruptable.


Love,

[bananabrain]

as far as noachide law #3 is concerned, i think my previous post ought to make it clear that it is not considered that christians are in breach of it either in deed or thought. regardless of the fact that we don't think jesus was an incarnation of G!D (such a thing being inconceivable from our PoV) the fact that christians *believe* and, moreover *strongly maintain* that jesus and G!D are One and that, therefore, they are worshipping G!D, would demand that their *intention* be considered as monotheistic. in other words, you guys believe you're worshipping the One G!D and so therefore we are hardly likely to argue with that.

Originally Posted by Dondi

If Jesus's purpose is to point us to the G!D of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, I can't see how this could be idolatrous.

indeed. however, for us to be pointing to the G!D of the patriarchs also requires us to be following the behaviours required of us by G!D's covenantal relationship with the patriarchs, in other words, to keep the covenant. if the purpose of certain followers of jesus was to persuade us that this covenant had been superseded, this might not be idolatrous, but it would certainly be problematic.

generally, insofar as we can attribute particular teachings to jesus himself, they tend to be unexceptionable, even mainstream from a rabbinic point of view. there are occasional lapses (such as healing or picking corn on Shabbat) but it may be that these themselves have been attributed rather than actually committed.

Originally Posted by Silas

This brings me to your question. Jesus claims to be G!D and so to put Him first isnt idolatery, its right!

i believe the phrase is "thou hast said it".

b'shalom

bananabrain