Christian Idolaters?

[Prober]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

the fact that christians *believe* and, moreover *strongly maintain* that jesus and G!D are One and that, therefore, they are worshipping G!D, would demand that their *intention* be considered as monotheistic. in other words, you guys believe you're worshipping the One G!D and so therefore we are hardly likely to argue with that.

Bananabrain! I never thought of that! Yeah, you're absolutely right!

That settles it in my mind!

Many thanks,
Mark

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Remember where you are, Silas.

What if I claimed to be God? Putting me first wouldn't be idolatery, it's right? right?

Many people in history have claimed to be God. Which one should we worship? A person's claiming to be God does not make it so. One better back one's claim with more than an assertion.

Jesus not only claimed to be God, but had all of the attributes of God and raised Himself from the grave to prove His claims. Either He is God or He's a liar or a crazy man.

Some believe Him to be who He claimed to be - the Son of God, the Savior, God, Messiah, Lord, etc., etc.

[dauer]

Cage,

What is the Jewish view of the man named Jesus, anyway? Do you guys think we should honor, and perhaps follow his lead like the other prophets? Does the Jewish community think he deserve this much respect, or no? Obviously, I know little about what you believe, so..

There is no Jewish view of Jesus. He's not considered a prophet, or a part of the religion in any way. Individual Jews form opinions about Jesus, but this is much like forming opinions on Muhammad, Buddha, or Napoleon. Some Jews think he was a good person on account that the teaching attributed him helped to bring so many gentiles to God, some think he was a terrible person or a little crazy, some doubt that he existed entirely entirely. But these and others are all personal opinions that are not a matter of religion.

Silas,

Jesus not only claimed to be God, but had all of the attributes of God and raised Himself from the grave to prove His claims.

This cannot be proven. It is a matter of faith. The same is true for the supernatural claims of all religions.

Either He is God or He's a liar or a crazy man.

Or, to add a few more possibilities, it's the people who came after him that changed his story not so much as a matter of lying, but making it fit into their mythos, or, he wasn't crazy but he did have some type of mental illness which, although making him slightly delusional, also gave him greater access to spiritual truths, or, he was really always speaking in metaphor and didn't mean for his words to be taken literally. I think your thinking is a bit too "all or nothing." There are many shades of gray.

Dauer

[Cage]

Originally Posted by dauer

Cage,



There is no Jewish view of Jesus. He's not considered a prophet, or a part of the religion in any way. Individual Jews form opinions about Jesus, but this is much like forming opinions on Muhammad, Buddha, or Napoleon. Some Jews think he was a good person on account that the teaching attributed him helped to bring so many gentiles to God, some think he was a terrible person or a little crazy, some doubt that he existed entirely entirely. But these and others are all personal opinions that are not a matter of religion.

Thanks, dauer...

I guess I wouldn't make a very good Jew after all, lol! I pretty much credit Jesus for what I believe today. I just don't worship him like many others do.


Much Love,

[dauer]

Cage,

There was actually a suggestion in a book I read that Jews who feel thusly, not that Jesus is somehow Divine, but who have been touched or inspired by his teachings, are much like the hasidim of a rebbe. Of course that suggestion itself would probably be received as fairly controversial by most in the Jewish community, even those who are more open to people who've been inspired by the teachings of the teachers of other religions. The feelings are very much because of the relationship the two religions have had for most of their history, all of the persecution and discrimination, as well as the way Christianity formed as a sort of "not that Judaism" and, for a religion that has few and flexible definitions about what a jew does believe, it's pretty universally clear on a few things that a jew doesn't. And it doesn't help that today there are missionary attempts that disguise themselves as Judaism in order to target Jews.

Dauer

[Cage]

Originally Posted by dauer

Cage,

There was actually a suggestion in a book I read that Jews who feel thusly, not that Jesus is somehow Divine, but who have been touched or inspired by his teachings, are much like the hasidim of a rebbe. Of course that suggestion itself would probably be received as fairly controversial by most in the Jewish community, even those who are more open to people who've been inspired by the teachings of the teachers of other religions. The feelings are very much because of the relationship the two religions have had for most of their history, all of the persecution and discrimination, as well as the way Christianity formed as a sort of "not that Judaism" and, for a religion that has few and flexible definitions about what a jew does believe, it's pretty universally clear on a few things that a jew doesn't. And it doesn't help that today there are missionary attempts that disguise themselves as Judaism in order to target Jews.

Dauer

Is it hard to be a practicing Jew, Dauer? Judaism seems so strict, with so many traditions. I would imagine it to be quite a challenge sometimes. Then again, I suppose every religion presents its challenges.

What harm are those missionaries, though...other than a thorn in the side? I don't think many practicing Jews ever convert to Christianity, do they? It would seem like more of a nuisance than threat to your traditions. I do understand the contention between the two religions, though. Our pasts will haunt us for many years to come I'm afraid...


Much Love,

[earl]

OK, perhaps my view of icons is iconoclastic but idolatry is in the eye and consciousness of the beholder. That is to me an icon is like a key in a lock. If an icon functions to deepen one's connection to and understanding of God, (like a key opening the lock to throw a door open) no idolatry. If an icon functions for someone like a key, turned the other way, locking one into a limited position, no growth-that's idolatry. I agree with what Wil said earlier that Jesus intended to use him as a key in the first sense of icon. Of course in the zen tradition, they'd tell you we were never locked in to begin with. have a good one, earl

[dauer]

Is it hard to be a practicing Jew, Dauer? Judaism seems so strict, with so many traditions. I would imagine it to be quite a challenge sometimes. Then again, I suppose every religion presents its challenges.

At times it can be, particularly if you don't have people to practice with, and you're in country dominated by another culture that doesn't place the same emphasis on ritual. But at least in my case I find the rituals that I practice rewarding, and being on the more progressive edge of Judaism, those that really don't work for me, I tweak until they can become more meaningful or relevant.

What harm are those missionaries, though...other than a thorn in the side? I don't think many practicing Jews ever convert to Christianity, do they? It would seem like more of a nuisance than threat to your traditions.

The problem really isn't the effect they can have on practicing, educated Jews so much. It's the effect they can have on the uneducated, non-practicing Jews, or those whose education and practice is limited. They even go to places like nursing homes and colleges to target people, which is cult-like behavior. I truly have nothing against the messianic groups who are seeking a syncretism as a way to get more in touch with Jesus. It's only the groups that do it as a way to more easily target Jews that bothers me.

I do understand the contention between the two religions, though. Our pasts will haunt us for many years to come I'm afraid...

I think that the most tangible difficulties only arise when dealing with those groups who perpetuate the same mentalities, on both sides, be it supercessionism or religiously fueled antisemitism on one side, or the labelling of Christianity as evil idolators on the other.

But it is true we are a long way from seeing these types of ideas fade away.

Dauer

[Karimarie]

Originally Posted by dauer

The problem really isn't the effect they can have on practicing, educated Jews so much. It's the effect they can have on the uneducated, non-practicing Jews, or those whose education and practice is limited. They even go to places like nursing homes and colleges to target people, which is cult-like behavior. I truly have nothing against the messianic groups who are seeking a syncretism as a way to get more in touch with Jesus. It's only the groups that do it as a way to more easily target Jews that bothers me.

Indeed. To use the Jews for Judaism example...

It's all too common for Mark Cohen to grow up in a nonreligious Jewish family, maybe get bar mitzvah'd and go to services on Yom Kippur annually, and that be his only experience of being Jewish. The consequence of this is the fact that suddenly he gets to university and sees a man wearing a kipah and is brought by that man into a Jews for Jesus-type group.

Educated, practicing Jews are not too much at risk for being converted to Christianity. It's the ones who never had much of an understanding of Judaism in the first place that are in danger the most.

[Prober]

I really appreciate all of your comments...I've learned a lot on this one.

Happy Hanukkah (a little early!)

Mark

[dauer]

Thank Prober.

You're actually right on time. The first candle was lit Friday before Shabbos.

Dauer

[Correction]

Peace