Christian Brotherhood

[Vajradhara]

Namaste virtual cliff,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

On the first point, my own view is that life is characterised by variety, by differentiation, but in death everything returns to the earth. It all depends whether you celebrate life or look forward to death. The ego is not the only aspect of ones personhood.

what do you mean by "everything" in this regard? i would certainly agree that the physical forms dissolution allows the atmoic structure to break down into its constituant parts, though that may not be what you are meaning to say.

i'm fairly confident that the dissolution of the atomic structure upon the ceasing of this physical form is operative regardless of ones philosophical outlook.

nor did i indicate otherwise, regarding personhood, such that it is. given your view that "we become too self-effacing we erase ourselves completely and become useless." i thought it apropos to point out that there is a religious paradigm which takes the opposite view.

On the second point, the differences in practise of religions are no more significant than the similarities of their central tenets. Some of the apparent differences within Christianity are greater than the differences between faiths. I think we all get too hung up on labels.

whilst i agree that being ensnared by conceptional ideation is problematic i would not agree that the difference in religious praxis is inconsequential. the Christian paradigm is frequenly seen as a monolithic whole which, as we both know, is a misunderstanding of the tradition.

Nonetheless I find any form of religious elitism unacceptable. Jesus said "Whoever would be greatest among you must be servant of all". Heightened awareness or sensitivity is no good if it does not lead to a more devoted service to others.

i happen to think that once ones awareness has sufficiently expanded the natural outgrowth of this process is to be of greater benefit to others. a beings expanding awareness is inherently valuable, in my estimation, regardless if said awareness is extended to being of benefit to others.

metta,

~v

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Not saying this "christian brotherhood" would be inline with hitlers views... It just sounds very master race.... Something special, something better than anyone else is coming! See what I mean? Just the way you worded it screams some kind of lynch mob master race group that love flanel as a design on clothing and white hoods.... lol That is all I was saying ya see....

I do know of a Christian group that wear Kaftans/Nighties. Not that they are a representative of the Sixth Epoch.

Hope Farm

White is difficult to care for.

Something better is coming. That is evolution. We can become Christian more and more. Humans should wish for the very best and not be satisfied with mean wishes.

What do you think "becoming Christian more and more" means?

-Br.Bruce

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

A point well made, Bruce. If we become too self-effacing we erase ourselves completely and become useless.

As the psalmist says "Oh how good and oh how pleasant it is when brothers (and sisters) live together in unity." I fail to see what is frightening about that.

Cliff

Yes Cliff,
As Christians we understand humility and selflessness, but we do not seek to deny our "I am".

Let me present a definition for this "I am" from a Lodge of Christian Teachers:

The ‘I am’ of Man is the highest egoic condition of the individual, upright and quite perfect, Christ-given, of Christ and of pure integrity. If we begin to search and sense our “I am-ness” this integrity helps us to have faith in our own decision making processes and helps us to come to egoic stances which otherwise may not have been possible. In the lowest context there can be self righteous behaviour, but even this sense of selfhood comes from intrinsic goodness being known and acted upon in mind. The ‘I am’ is beingness in absolute fact and it is indestructible, through the power of Christ being woven through it- our core of being.

God Bless,
Br.Bruce

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

that is certainly one view... one which the Buddhadharma would demonstrate to be incorrect, in my estimation. it is only when a being can break the shell of grasping ego that they can then be of altruistic benefit to all beings.

Dear Vajradhara,
That "grasping ego" is only a lower condition of ego- really unrefined kama.

Who is this 'I' that is trying to be more altruistic? Does it seek peace & bliss?

From your your posts I sense a well developed healthy obstinacy. Where does that comes from?

I have posted before about the overwhelming force of ego that comes from mystical deepening and how it is overcome by Christian mystics:

Master Eckhart: "Clothing Yourself with Christ"

To help you understand what I mean when I say 'ego', read the following instruction from Dr.Steiner:

EGO
It is the vehicle of the human ‘ I ,’ of the human Ego. The little word ‘ I ’ — as used, for example, in the English language — is a name essentially different from all other names. To anyone who ponders rightly on the nature of this name, there is opened up at once a way of approach to a perception of man's real nature. The vehicle of this faculty of saying ‘ I ,’ of the Ego-faculty, is the ‘Body of the Ego,’ the fourth member of the human being.

This ‘Body of the Ego’ is the vehicle of the higher soul of man. Through it man is the crown of all earthly creation. Now in the human being of the present day the Ego is by no means simple in character.

This is what the growth and development of civilization means for man. It is a continual working of his Ego upon the lower members of his nature. The work penetrates right down into the physical body.

What we call ‘conscience’ is nothing else than the outcome of the work of the Ego on the life-body through incarnation after incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he ought not to do this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an impression on him that the impression passes on into his etheric body, ‘conscience’ arises.

The Ego may become so strong as to transform, by its very own power and strength, the astral/sentient body. What the Ego then makes of the Sentient or Astral Body is called ‘Spirit-Self’ (or by an Eastern expression, ‘Manas’). This transformation is wrought mainly through a process of learning, through an enriching of one's inner life with higher ideas and perceptions.....

Happy Trails,
Br.Bruce

[Virtual_Cliff]

(Sorry about the long delay - sorting out my son's battle with council tax).

Helminski says it better than I can:

A Common and shallow misunderstanding of the spiritual process consists in wanting to move directly from being an ego-driven individual to having "no self". But discovering our own presence is the beginning of being free of the compulsive and demanding ego.

All I was saying is that we should not allow our own presence to fade away.

Cliff

[China Cat Sunflower]

..

[China Cat Sunflower]

A Common and shallow misunderstanding of the spiritual process consists in wanting to move directly from being an ego-driven individual to having "no self". But discovering our own presence is the beginning of being free of the compulsive and demanding ego.

Excellent!

Chris

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

(Sorry about the long delay - sorting out my son's battle with council tax).

Helminski says it better than I can:



All I was saying is that we should not allow our own presence to fade away.

Cliff

Yes, Christians must be careful of this. I would term it a Luciferic temptation - ego death.

On the other extreme is egotism. As a remedy for this I have found "The Imitation of Christ" written down by A Kempis, to be invaluable.

As always, it's all about balance.

Godspeed,
Br.Bruce

[Dondi]

A Common and shallow misunderstanding of the spiritual process consists in wanting to move directly from being an ego-driven individual to having "no self". But discovering our own presence is the beginning of being free of the compulsive and demanding ego.

For a Christian, it's not about finding our ego, or losing our ego, it's about finding ourselves "in Christ". In other words, we find our highest potential, our highest being, "in Christ", who is the model of perfection, the standard by which we must follow. Hence the name Christian. When Jesus said, "He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." (Matthew 10:39), He wasn't talking about destroying one's ego, but reather rediscovering it in light of God's Spirit indwelling in him.

Where our ego gets in the way is when we don't allow God to make the changes necessary to make us into the type of people He wants us to be. We think we can do this of our own accord, but all our attempts at righteousness without Him are like filthy rags, for we are not led by the Spirit, but by the flesh (that is our ego).

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Bruce Michael,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

That "grasping ego" is only a lower condition of ego- really unrefined kama.

whilst this may be the Theosophical point of view it is not one which is found within the Buddhadharma. nevertheless, it seems that you would agree that the ego is the basis of the projection of "i" upon Samsara.

Who is this 'I' that is trying to be more altruistic? Does it seek peace & bliss?

even Buddhas use conventional forms of speech when they proclaim the Dharma how much more should a being such as i?

From your your posts I sense a well developed healthy obstinacy. Where does that comes from?

perhaps that is simply a projection? my views are based on this current life cycle and the knowledge and experience which this being has undergone.

metta,

~v

[Virtual_Cliff]

Originally Posted by Dondi

For a Christian, it's not about finding our ego, or losing our ego, it's about finding ourselves "in Christ". In other words, we find our highest potential, our highest being, "in Christ", who is the model of perfection, the standard by which we must follow....

Where our ego gets in the way is when we don't allow God to make the changes necessary to make us into the type of people He wants us to be.

Yes I agree. And we can't meet Christ "out there" with our senses, but within ourselves. In this way we can find common ground with non-theists.

And our ego does not have to be all bad. Helminski again:

... we will see how this ego is supported by spiritual intelligence and wisdom, and how it can in return act as an instrument of greater intelligence rather than as a proponent of its own self-interest. We need to establish a subtle balance...