Chinese Medicine

[wil]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I would never take up Chinese medicine for ethical reasons.

Can you expound on this, I'm confused as to how Chinese medicine is unethical...Traditional Chinese Medicine? Five Element? They had a rural system that you picked a local doctor and funded his existence in your community, you paid him when you and your family was well. You paid him with whatever your crop was, or whatever your trade or money if possible. If you were sick and couldn't work, you didn't have to pay...if you were really sick you moved into his house for care as there was no hospital....he had a desire to keep you healthy, he wanted you to keep paying and surely didn't want you in his house.

[juantoo3]

I am sorry I missed this in context, I'll have to follow up.

I fail to see how Chinese medicine is unethical too.

In addition to wil's points, I would add the concepts of meridians and balance.

There is also the matter of addressing the underlying causes...rather than the symptoms, in contrast to western medicine.

Western medicine is superior in treatment of traumatic injury. IMHO, Chinese medicine is superior for chronic ailments.

[InLove]

Hi Everyone

While I have a deep respect for much of Chinese medicinal practices, I think that there are some aspects of it that threaten the survival of certain animal species, and there are some concerns regarding cruelty.

Is this what you were referring to, Snoop?

InPeace,
InLove

[Snoopy]

Bingo my dear.

Maybe I should have been more specific; not all TCM, but this is what I am referring to:

(and maybe I shouldn't have said "unethical"; I should have said "abhorrent.")

"China is currently the world’s largest market for medicines derived from endangered species and wildlife parts, including tiger bones, rhino horns, deer antlers, turtle shells, and bear bile. According to the World Wildlife Fund, the increasing popularity of TCM over the past two decades has increased poaching and illegal trade of threatened and endangered wildlife to “crisis levels,” negating progress made to protect these animals through endangered species laws and nature reserves. TCM has been named the top conservation threat, above the loss of habitat, for Asia’s severely depleted bear, tiger, and rhinoceros populations."


Conference on Traditional Chinese Medicine Marks Shift Towards Global Market, Raises Concerns About Social and Ecological Impact | Worldwatch Institute


When it comes to keeping a bear in agony while a catheter draws bile from its liver you can shove your yin and yang up your forbidden city. (sorry, that's not personal; it just disgusts me; I am an advocate of treating people holistically).


s.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by wil

Can you expound on this, I'm confused as to how Chinese medicine is unethical...Traditional Chinese Medicine? Five Element? They had a rural system that you picked a local doctor and funded his existence in your community, you paid him when you and your family was well. You paid him with whatever your crop was, or whatever your trade or money if possible. If you were sick and couldn't work, you didn't have to pay...if you were really sick you moved into his house for care as there was no hospital....he had a desire to keep you healthy, he wanted you to keep paying and surely didn't want you in his house.

I really like this system. It rewards health, not illness. Incompetent doctors will soon drop out of the system if they can't keep their patients healthy enough to work. And, best of all, it doesn't require a huge governmental bureaucracy.

I do agree with Snoopy about the non-herbal medicines, though. I feel the same way about premarin, made from the urine of pregnant mares who are stuck in their stalls with cathoders.

[Snoopy]

Oh great. Now I've just read this in the paper.

"The world’s dwindling tiger population faces an alarming new threat as China tries to legitimise farming the animal for its body parts, conservationists in India said yesterday."

- Deal sought to revive trade in tiger body parts-News-World-Asia-TimesOnline

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

It rewards health, not illness. Incompetent doctors will soon drop out of the system if they can't keep their patients healthy enough to work.

So if there was, say, a pandemic of the Black Death to sweep around the world, all the doctors would be made unemployed because they couldn't keep their patients healthy?

s.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

So if there was, say, a pandemic of the Black Death to sweep around the world, all the doctors would be made unemployed because they couldn't keep their patients healthy?

s.

If their patients die, who will support them?

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

If their patients die, who will support them?

sorry sg, as often seems to be the case I don't get your point (I think I may be going senile). Can you be more explicit? Maybe a diagram too.

s.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

sorry sg, as often seems to be the case I don't get your point (I think I may be going senile). Can you be more explicit? Maybe a diagram too.

s.

If you have no customers, you have no income.

Perhaps this might help:
An farmer who has an orange orchard sees the forecast for a coming deep freeze. Of course the farmer will do all he can to protect the crop and the trees from the freeze. However, if the freeze is severe, and the farmer loses the crop, it does not mean that the farmer will also allow the trees to also die. (Just losing the crop is a minor setback. Losing the trees would put him out of business.)

[Snoopy]

So are you saying an "incurable" disease requires no doctors? Is there no place for palliative care? (TCM being one for a holistic approach) What about them being involved in research? Are doctors not needed in the fight against HIV/AIDS?

s.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

So are you saying an "incurable" disease requires no doctors? Is there no place for palliative care? (TCM being one for a holistic approach) What about them being involved in research? Are doctors not needed in the fight against HIV/AIDS?

s.

What are you talking about? The way the system is set up is that the doctor gets paid while his patients are able to work, and does not get paid when his patients are unable to work. A person might still be able to work if a doctor can help the patient successfully manage an incurable or chronic disease, and the doctor would still get paid. However, it would be much more profitable to both doctor and patient if the doctor was able to cure the problem, rather than just help manage the symptoms.

That is the difference between the Chinese approach and the current approach. The current approach financially rewards illness (by treating it), while the Chinese approach financially rewards health (by cultivating it).

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

What are you talking about? The way the system is set up is that the doctor gets paid while his patients are able to work, and does not get paid when his patients are unable to work.

What “system” are you on about? The American? The British? Another? All?
I’m not fussed about this going off topic, but I’m not about to conflate health with the political thinking behind any particular health care structure.

A person might still be able to work if a doctor can help the patient successfully manage an incurable or chronic disease, and the doctor would still get paid. However, it would be much more profitable to both doctor and patient if the doctor was able to cure the problem, rather than just help manage the symptoms.

I’m sure it would. I imagine the patient does want to get rid of the disease and the doctor does want to cure them of it, but that obviously isn’t always possible, as per my example of HIV and the Black Death; irrespective of how much more “profitable” it would be to be cured. Deadly viruses tend not to be interested in the profit motive.

That is the difference between the Chinese approach and the current approach. The current approach financially rewards illness (by treating it), while the Chinese approach financially rewards health (by cultivating it)

Financially rewards illness? That's a bit beyond me I'm sorry to say.

s.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

What “system” are you on about? The American? The British? Another? All?
I’m not fussed about this going off topic, but I’m not about to conflate health with the political thinking behind any particular health care structure.

Then why did you bring up Chinese medicine in particular? Western medicine does some of the same things you complain about in the Chinese system (My example of Premarin being one.)

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Then why did you bring up Chinese medicine in particular? Western medicine does some of the same things you complain about in the Chinese system (My example of Premarin being one.)

Actually I didn’t. MW did in this thread:

Allowing child molesters in church?

I posted a comment in reply to her post and wil copied and pasted it as the OP of this thread.

I have not heard of Premarin but I agree with you. Two wrongs don’t make a right. I am opposed to ill treatment of animals whoever or wherever it is committed. And yes, that includes testing on animals. I realise that all creatures by living cause suffering and death for others, but I suppose it is a matter of one’s own conscience as to what is “acceptable” or ethical. I try to make ethical choices and for me this means giving Chinese medicine a wide berth. Similarly (or not) I could buy a salad from Mcdonalds but for me this would be putting money in the pocket of a company I find abhorrent. So I don’t.

But now I’m rambling…

s.