cheating on God...

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Leo

Interesting thread. May I give my 10 piastres worth.

Your original analogy of wanting your wife's attention - take that to the extreme you are talking about with G-d. What if your wife never watched mexican tv, came to work with you, never left your side, gave you all her attention 24/7, you couldn't go to the bathroom by yourself, she cleans your teeth for you, to the point where your wife has no life of her own. Would you enjoy this, is this the level of devotion you want from your wife? Or do you want your wife to enjoy her life, within reasonable moral bounds, whilst sharing quality time with you on a regular basis? While your wife is at the supermarket would you like to think she is buying your favourite food because she cares about you or because she feels obliged to do so?

Life is about choices, not exclusion. I love my playstation, however I am now careful about the games I choose. I love reading but I no longer read raunchy books that make me think of certain things. I love music but now I just download the songs I feel do not cross that line. I love watching tv but now I have blocked the porn channels, not because I used to watch them much but because sometimes if you are flicking through the channels and your eye catches something 'interesting' it is so easy to be drawn into watching it. So by blocking them I completely stopped that temptation.

I think of it like dieting - if I change the way I eat and think about food then I change the rest of my life. If I deny myself everything I like then I am unlikely to stick to it and will end up in a circle of self loathing and guilt because I am unable to stick to it, as well as the fact that my weight will yo-yo - same with my faith.

As for batman and idolatry, do people really 'worship' batman? Perhaps they like batman, collect the films, comics etc but do they think of batman as a god - hmmm sounds a bit far fetched to me. I adore my cat, I spend more time with my cat than I do praying, I am always buying him treats and toys, so am I worshiping my cat, is that idolatry? When I forget about G-d and start to pray to my cat or batman doll then yes that is idolatry and also mental illness.

Salaam

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Why are you trying to be clever? You just seem foolish. For real.

I am not trying to be clever.... If I am not on the side of your god... how the freak am I cheating on him? I have no tie to your god.... I have no loyalty comitments so hence, I am not cheating on him..... Because I haven't said I swear an oath or something to that extent to your god..... To make my simple short life any more dull than it can possibly be, by changing my life for something that cannot even be proven is there.... I would be cheating yes.... I would be cheating myself.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I am not trying to be clever.... If I am not on the side of your god... how the freak am I cheating on him? I have no tie to your god.... I have no loyalty comitments so hence, I am not cheating on him..... Because I haven't said I swear an oath or something to that extent to your god..... To make my simple short life any more dull than it can possibly be, by changing my life for something that cannot even be proven is there.... I would be cheating yes.... I would be cheating myself.

My 2cents

Whether you acknowledge Him as your God or not.. He still is. He still created you and if He wanted to He could snuff out your existance like it was so much nothingness..but He wont because He loves you and He desires that you come to Him in repentence. He knows how we are. Mankind has been rebelling since day 1.

The logic of creation is easy if you stop and think about it.

You look at a painting.. look at the intricate brush strokes and fine detail and you know that the painting was created by someone.

Now look in the mirror and look at the intricate mechanisms of your body and the fine detail thats put into it. You come to the same conclusion.. you were created by someone.. someone that loves you.

Its that simple yet you would believe a lie. why?

[LeoSalinas22]

hi muslimwoman,

Interesting thread. May I give my 10 piastres worth.

by all means, don't mind me.

Your original analogy of wanting your wife's attention - take that to the extreme you are talking about with G-d. What if your wife never watched mexican tv, came to work with you, never left your side, gave you all her attention 24/7, you couldn't go to the bathroom by yourself, she cleans your teeth for you, to the point where your wife has no life of her own. Would you enjoy this, is this the level of devotion you want from your wife? Or do you want your wife to enjoy her life, within reasonable moral bounds, whilst sharing quality time with you on a regular basis? While your wife is at the supermarket would you like to think she is buying your favourite food because she cares about you or because she feels obliged to do so?

you make excellent points, woman, and i wish i knew more about islam to make a better response so hear it goes. ok, you have guys like enoch or Christ, right? i mean literally these guys "walked" with God. they did every single thing that was asked of them. no "ifs, ands, or buts", they just did it to please God. were they bothered by doing His Will? no. i would imagine, no, i know they enjoyed doing His Will. i know for a fact that if i would do every single thing God asked me to do, i wouldn't be bothered by it, but, how can i forget who i am? or how can i forget my sins? i just can't. they come back. just like a cancer that goes away but is still there. do you know what i mean? Christ Himself says:
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
you see? remission of sins. not the destruction of sin, or the end of sin, but the remission of sins. it means they go away, but will come back. it is so hard not to think of beautiful women. my sin is crouching just outside the door, but i must be a master to it. its just so difficult.

Life is about choices, not exclusion. I love my playstation, however I am now careful about the games I choose. I love reading but I no longer read raunchy books that make me think of certain things. I love music but now I just download the songs I feel do not cross that line. I love watching tv but now I have blocked the porn channels, not because I used to watch them much but because sometimes if you are flicking through the channels and your eye catches something 'interesting' it is so easy to be drawn into watching it. So by blocking them I completely stopped that temptation.

"life is about choices", you are absolutely right. we have free will. a blessing and a curse, all wrapped in one. i have gone on a diet on these so called "hobbies". eventually, sin consumes me again. you say that you have completely stopped temptation with the click of a button? wow. i wish it were that easy. i mean, is it me, or do women have less of a problem with temptation? naaah. its me. eve did eat the fruit, didn't she? but women are more calm when it comes to temptation. just a thought. i don't mean to be difficult, and i apreciate your response.

I think of it like dieting - if I change the way I eat and think about food then I change the rest of my life. If I deny myself everything I like then I am unlikely to stick to it and will end up in a circle of self loathing and guilt because I am unable to stick to it, as well as the fact that my weight will yo-yo - same with my faith.

what do you think of this scripture, woman?

Ecclesiastes 7 It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart. Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better. The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.
you see, to me it means that only through making the flesh suffer, does one attain a better understanding of God. your heart is just made better when you suffer. sorry if i sound crazy. i know my wife constantly tells me that i have a demon in me. and she is a jw! you are right to do the "dieting" thing. perhaps, that is what i need to do more. reject the "self".

As for batman and idolatry, do people really 'worship' batman? Perhaps they like batman, collect the films, comics etc but do they think of batman as a god - hmmm sounds a bit far fetched to me. I adore my cat, I spend more time with my cat than I do praying, I am always buying him treats and toys, so am I worshiping my cat, is that idolatry? When I forget about G-d and start to pray to my cat or batman doll then yes that is idolatry and also mental illness.

well, let me give you a website address and i don't know if this is right but if it isn't, it will just be censored. the address is superherohype.com. go to the boards there and listen to what some of these guys say. you don't have to officially say, "oh batman, i glorify your name into all of eternity." you glorify God by the way one lives no? you show Him how you live and you apply His Law into everyday life to show Him you love Him. when God is absent in one's heart, you are already rebelling. believe me, i know because i used to be like that. sometimes i still am. just my thought. sorry if i ramble. again, i wish i knew more about islam so we can be on the same level.
thanks.

[LeoSalinas22]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

My 2cents

Whether you acknowledge Him as your God or not.. He still is. He still created you and if He wanted to He could snuff out your existance like it was so much nothingness..but He wont because He loves you and He desires that you come to Him in repentence. He knows how we are. Mankind has been rebelling since day 1.

The logic of creation is easy if you stop and think about it.

You look at a painting.. look at the intricate brush strokes and fine detail and you know that the painting was created by someone.

Now look in the mirror and look at the intricate mechanisms of your body and the fine detail thats put into it. You come to the same conclusion.. you were created by someone.. someone that loves you.

Its that simple yet you would believe a lie. why?

its ok faith, 17th has a spirit of slumber:
"(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day."
he has it even worse because he has knowledge of God and doesn't glorify Him. forgive him for he knows not what he does. all we can do is "sow in tears", faith. sow in tears. let God do the rest.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Whether you acknowledge Him as your God or not.. He still is. He still created you and if He wanted to He could snuff out your existance like it was so much nothingness..

Sorry, I truly am, but this as far as I get on your post.... Because I will not accept this..... By your understanding you think he created me....

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

its ok faith, 17th has a spirit of slumber:
"(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day."
he has it even worse because he has knowledge of God and doesn't glorify Him. forgive him for he knows not what he does. all we can do is "sow in tears", faith. sow in tears. let God do the rest.

I -seriously-, and do mean seriously.... Hope none would "sow in tears" over myself.

[LeoSalinas22]

I -seriously-, and do mean seriously.... Hope none would "sow in tears" over myself.

too late, man. the seed is already sown because the knowledge of God is in you. God will take care of the rest.

[dauer]

Sorry Leo. Just got back to this thread.

do you believe that man has a God-given spirit that connects us to God or are we all just "meat puppets"?

As an agnostic I don't "believe" either. My sense of reality pivots around my understanding of God and sense of God in my life, but I also doubt all subjective experience, including that which relates to God. As I view the world, the division between spirit and body may very well be more-or-less illusory and the dichotomy between spirit and body damaging if anything by rendering the body less than spirit. I work with the soul myth myself, because it can be a helpful construct, but I don't assume for a minute I'm doing anything more than what Jung did with his archetypes and Freud did with the id, ego, and supergo. For my personal understanding of the world, you might see this recent thread, not the first part, but the two or three posts in where I respond to Dondi (posts 3-6):

Beit Binah Virtual Intentional Community, My New Project

if you are caught in a life or death situation, do you listen to your heart or do you listen to logic?

I take both into account. I don't think it's smart to rely too heavily on either. There's a balance between the two that can be quite helpful. Depending on what you're referring to as heart, on the important things they're often in agreement, or at least reach a position they can each be satisfied with. The heart speaks in generalities and logic then in the specific road to take. Logic is good sometimes for challenging heart when it goes in a dangerous direction, but in those case logic can often redirect heart to something more affirming and helpful. For example maybe at first I feel like I should act a certain way and then I think of what the result would be. My heart doesn't like the result any more than my logic does, and I do something else.

i ask this because your responses are based more on fleshly indulgences and not with Spirit.

That's a straw man if I ever heard one. They're actually based entirely on spirit and affirming spirit. The difference between what I say and what you say is that I see spirit as affirming the physical world, and not denying it. It is then our role to find that affirmation of the holy and sacred in our daily lives, use that as a way to grow closer to God, instead of seeing it as something to push us away from God and create a greater distance between us. Everything is a part of God. If my ideas were truly as you say about flesh indulgence and not about God, then I wouldn't give suggestions for making God a part of it, growing closer to God through it and making God the focus, transforming it into sacred practice, prayer, worship. Rather, my suggestions are for ways to make God a part of all of the holy parts of life. These things I have suggested are not harmful to anyone, only affirming of the Divine.

i can't tell if this is a mentallity that jewish people accept or if it is a mankind mentallity.

Judaism's very this-worldly. It generally doesn't see God as a distant Other and often those things that some might consider mundane it sees as a way to get closer to God. It does traditionally understand the soul to be something distinct from body, but sometimes also that all of the physical world is a part of God. And when that is not the case, it still generally sees the whole physical world as filled with God. There are certain activities that have traditionally been understood as not being okay, masturbation for example, however as Judaism continues to evolve as it has all these centuries, that ceases to be the case for most of us. There are many who would simply allow things like masturbation without finding a way to then transform them into something sacred. I think that's holdoff from the enlightenment, which generally saw spirituality as less rational, and why then would someone want to incorporate more spirituality, bring God into something, where He isn't already? But then there are others like myself who fully embrace God and only wish to bring Him into every moment. That is why, for example, in Renewal there are people who would see all consensual adult sexual expression as a potential home for the Divine.

we can't give in to all of our fleshly desires, dauer.

Well, we absolutely can't give into all of our desires. Sometimes it hurt other people. Like if someone says something to you that hurts and you just want to hurt them back in some way. It's also good to maintain a degree of discipline, but that discipline need not be about denying things, only structuring them and limiting over-indulgence, like for example you could save masturbation for only on Shabbat, the Sabbath, when it can be a special time for communion between yourself and God, to grow closer to Him. For a Jew that makes perfect sense, as there is a tradition for married couples to take some time for a little of that on Shabbat. We should enjoy all of life. It's a blessing from God. Couldn't the denial of joy in God's gift really be seen as a form of blaspheme?

u know what i mean? we have to listen to our heart as well, no?

Ah, I understand what you mean by heart now. I should read entire posts before responding. The difference here is that to me, heart is something found within and not determined by a book. Our sacred traditions may structure the way in which we give our sense of the Divine expression, but they don't determine the heart. And heart for me is God saying, "Find me everywhere, in everything that you do. Affirm me. I am here always."

I think heart for you probably says something similar, except for you in order to make God a part of something, your sense is that you need to exclude more of the other stuff.

There was an episode of Stargate: Atlantis were Col. Shepherd was stranded in this place where there was a whole community. They spent most of their time sitting in meditation, preparing for ascension. But in doing so, they missed out on life. Not only that but they saw the "negative" parts of htemselves as Other, and that created a monster that would attack their village. In the end, in order to ascend, they had to face the monster they'd created and own that it is a part of them too, not some separate evil. When they saw it as something separate from their sacred selves it became deadweight and even harmful. Once they were able to fully own and integrate it into their being, they were able to soar. The only reason it became an evil monster is because they labelled it as such.

Dauer

[Ciel]

Dauer,

If I were to quote from your posts on this thread....... I would wish to quote and requote them all....You excel...... I agree.

The divine loves when love is the ascendant key.

Peace - c -

[LeoSalinas22]

ok, dauer, i am confused. i read a bit of your post hyperlink. just answer this question. do you know, without a doubt in the fiber of your entire being, if God exists? and if you KNOW He exists, do you love Him, with all your heart, mind, and soul? just need to know so that i can better understand your responses. please bear with me for i am still trying to be on your level of intelligience. thanks. hope to hear from you soon.

[dauer]

ciel,

If I were to quote from your posts on this thread....... I would wish to quote and requote them all....You excel...... I agree.

The divine loves when love is the ascendant key.

Thanks Ciel.

--Dauer

_____

Leo,

ok, dauer, i am confused.

It's okay. Sometimes I don't state myself clearly and I often embrace seeming paradox.

do you know, without a doubt in the fiber of your entire being, if God exists?

Are you asking if I know this cognitively as an absolute or if I experience God as a part of my reality?

In answer to the first question, I avoid holding absolute truths. I make an effort not to allow myself to become convinced that my way of viewing the world is an absolute truth. Certain spiritual practices leave us more open to the power of suggestion so I do what I can to prevent any experience, awareness, or thoughts that arise during spiritual practice from becoming too concrete.

In answer to the other question, God is my reality.

and if you KNOW He exists, do you love Him, with all your heart, mind, and soul?

Absolutely.

There's a hasidic hanhagah, an instructional teaching from hasidism, concerning prayer. In prayer there is a motion some Jews make of rocking back and forth called shuckling. This teaching suggests that when a man prays (it is, as you will see, quite clearly directed to a male audience and does not reflect any personal bias against women practicing an analogue to this hanhagah) he should imagine he is making love to the shechinah. In Judaism the shechinah is God's presence and the Divine feminine. Can you imagine the power of that, starting off the davennen maybe by engaging in a little spiritual foreplay. Whispering a few sweet nothings to the Beloved, garbing oneself in something that makes you feel holy, then maybe just standing there, still, looking into each other's eyes, drinking each other in. Then you start off slowly in your prayer, fully present for each moment. As you get more excited the intensity increases. The words are pouring from you. Your heart breaks open in a climactic moment of union with the Beloved.

Standing still, you catch your breath, ground yourself, offer gratitude and smile.

Dauer

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

i don't know if this has been done before but i'll go ahead and start this thread. my question upon starting this thread is if things like playing videogames, watching movies, "erotic self-pleasure", reading other forms of works like comic books or novels, or listening to music, etc. would offend God because they are a form of idolotry. let me use an example, batman, spiderman, mickey mouse, etc. they seem harmless. having statues of them or posters of them is harmless and doesn't hurt anyone and some look to these "examples" as a form of guidance or answers. but how different is it from statues of virgin mary or greek gods or that big ass statue in egypt of the half man half lion? also, for example, people can read novels like war and peace or lord of the rings but can't finish the bible? or another example, working out. isn't that worshiping the self? i could go on and on, but i won't. i ask this because i compare doing these things to like praying to statues or pictures or offering sacrifices to pagan gods. i mean the above mentioned "hobbies" seem harmless, right? we aren't hurting anyone, right? no one dies, no one gets offended, so its ok! to top it off, they would be worse because we actually put our emotions into it! we curse video games because we lose to them or we cry at a certain movie because it moved us more than Gods Words. but i can't help but think that God is like the Husband and we are like the wife. from my experience, if my wife isn't paying attention to me then that bothers me. even if she would rather watch one of her mexican soaps instead of hang out with me.lol. she isn't hurting anyone, but i want her to be with me. i would imagine that God sees us the same way. He wants us to always be with Him and be faithful to Him. am i overreacting? should i just "chill" and continue to do all these things without considering His feelings? i hope i don't sound "preachy". it isn't my intent. i hope to read all responses very soon since to me it is a very interesting and important subject.

We "slave" ourselves to work for the almighty dollar...is that idolatry, or merely making ends meet?

People have to have icons to admire, and strive to be like. It may be mom or dad, or uncle, Mary, Joseph, Muhammad, Daniel, or Spiderman. Unlike "God" (whom we can never be like), the others are human in our minds (even super heroes), and have positions in life that are considered accessable/achieveable to us (we can be like them if we try).

Man also needs to be able to escape for a bit, the mundane of life. He needs to suspend disbelief, and consider even for a moment, that anything is possible, even for self. We appear to be the only animal on earth that can literally project our mind into a different world (and actually be there), if only for a moment.


I don't think that is idolatry...(well maybe to some, but not most). It is healthy exercise of one's mind, a boost to the spirit, and inspiration for the soul.

v/r

Q

[MindFreak666]

Faithfulservant, I dont mean to offend but saying that "whether you acknowledge him as your god or not .. he still is" is a very ignorant statement. You should not state your beliefs as fact because I could just as easily say that God is just a concept created by the limited human mind whether you acknowledge it or not. But stating our beliefs as fact in this way does not make for a constructive conversation.

[Muslimwoman]

[quote=LeoSalinas22;107084]ok, you have guys like enoch or Christ, right? i mean literally these guys "walked" with God.

Hi Leo

All the Prophets "walked" with G-d and have a special place in heaven due to the task they were given. Does this mean we can all attain the same level of servitude or does it mean we should endeavour each day to follow their examples? Will you try to heal the sick tomorrow? I don't mean that rudely in any way but Jesus (pbuh) was given special gifts by G-d and we should all try to follow his example not try to be him.

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

Christ Himself says: For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. you see? remission of sins. not the destruction of sin, or the end of sin, but the remission of sins. it means they go away, but will come back. it is so hard not to think of beautiful women. my sin is crouching just outside the door, but i must be a master to it. its just so difficult.

Sorry Leo but to me you make a huge leap in thought here. No sin can be destroyed, unless G-d wills it, we commit sin and on the Day of Judgement we will answer for that sin. However, as I understand it (forgive me if I am wrong), the remission of sin was the act of absolving sin, when a person is truly repentant.

Did Jesus (pbuh) not say "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" (Luke 24:47).

I think it is fair to say that once we recognise something as a sin and repent, that we should fight the urge to return to this sin.

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

it is so hard not to think of beautiful women. my sin is crouching just outside the door, but i must be a master to it. its just so difficult.

Have you ever asked yourself how, if known, this would make your wife feel? Would she feel hurt? Would she feel inadequate? I only say this because perhaps you should try to consider this, ask what is truly important to you and what is fantasy compared to reality? Would you really wish to make your wife feel inadequate for a fantasy you could never have? All I am suggesting is that you try to adjust your though process to what is important to you rather than what is gratifying.

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

wow. i wish it were that easy.

sorry did I say it was easy? I am no saint. I found it very hard, I had to readjust what was important to me. I did it by truly believeing that on the Day of Judgement I will actually stand before the One True G-d and answer for my sins. When you can truly do this and apply it to each choice you make, I promise you the choices get much easier. But sometimes I still falter and give in, I am only human. I do however have a life, I found 'good' methods of entertainment and each choice is made with the question in mind "how will I answer for this".

[quote=LeoSalinas22;107084]i mean, is it me, or do women have less of a problem with temptation? naaah. its me. eve did eat the fruit, didn't she?

Errmmm, in the Quran we learn that Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they were both sinful and both equally guilty. Eve did not pin Adam down and force a piece of fruit into his mouth.

Some women do, some women don't have a problem with temptation. Some men do, some men don't. That's life, we are all different and all capable in different ways. I find that avoiding temptation comes easier with age!!

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

what do you think of this scripture, woman?
Ecclesiastes 7 you see, to me it means that only through making the flesh suffer, does one attain a better understanding of God. your heart is just made better when you suffer. sorry if i sound crazy.

You don't sound crazy, you just sound bothered by something and looking for extremes to 'fix' yourself. Doesn't this verse just mean it is better to remember G-d than going off to be a party animal? There is no leveller in this life like the reminder that we will all, without exception, die and return to answer for our sins. In all the scriptures G-d tells us how to avoid sin, by remembering Him. I don't believe this means we must be miserable and stick a fork in our leg.

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

well, let me give you a website address and i don't know if this is right but if it isn't, it will just be censored. the address is superherohype.com. go to the boards there and listen to what some of these guys say.

What a good laugh, clearly there are grown ups in this world sitting at their keyboards in their batman outfits. Very sad. This level of obsession is worrying to say the least but truly I can't see it as idolatry. Perhaps they do not believe in G-d? I don't know but to me in order for something to be idolatry it requires a belief that something has a higher level of existence than us and can change our lives.

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

you glorify God by the way one lives no?

So who is the greater sinner, the man that loves batman but gives in charity, treats everyone equally and believes in G-d or the pious man, who has bad knees from praying and does obsene things with children? I am sorry but I do not believe you can judge anyone by their outside appearance and only G-d knows what is truly in our hearts. Should we not be more concerned with dealing with our own sins than pointing out perceived sins in others?

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

again, i wish i knew more about islam so we can be on the same level.

Perhaps if we both love G-d and desire to be good servants of G-d, then we are already on the same level?

Salaam

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by MindFreak666

Faithfulservant, I dont mean to offend but saying that "whether you acknowledge him as your god or not .. he still is" is a very ignorant statement. You should not state your beliefs as fact because I could just as easily say that God is just a concept created by the limited human mind whether you acknowledge it or not. But stating our beliefs as fact in this way does not make for a constructive conversation.

Oh a new person..... Welcome to the site.....