cheating on God...

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

But I am not scoring a point for their team... I'm scoring for my team. ;/ I am not cheating on the other team... If I did... However highly unlikley put in an owngoal... I certainly wouldn't have done it on purpose so that isn't cheating.

Why are you trying to be clever? You just seem foolish. For real.

[dauer]

Wil,

If we the image of G-d, if we are expressions of G-d in this realm, would not our acting less than divine affect that image...

Sure, from one perspective. Is multiplicity any less Divine than a more monistic view of things? Is there a difference between the two or simply a change in perspective? If multiplicity is always changing, does that really change God or is that the nature of God? Is the evil in the world outside of God or is that a part of God too? Is the view that something is wrong our personal perspective or something more universal? I like the idea of thinking of God as more of a verb, instead of a noun. If God is a verb, then we're really talking about Godding. And in that sense, of a process of Godding, there is change, development, but I don't think that actually effects the nature of God at all. God's nature remains unchanging in that understanding, and if you take a snapshot at any given time, you can't then say, "Ah, see. This is what God is." That would be like taking a photo in Hawaii and saying, "This is my summer vacation." It's not. It's an image from it. Even if you took a video, it still would only be a video from your summer vacation.

Some would ask the question if God evolves along with us, at least in the sense that the whole Godding humanity thing is new. As a theological construct it reflects the changing perspectives of God humanity has had over time. Others would ask if the language we use about God changes God, and the archetypes we apply. I don't think it's that important. What I have observed in myself is that my relationship with God is different in different moments depending on the terms in which and the ways in which I relate. It is very different to visualize myself constantly nourished and sustained by the milk, as it were, of the Divine breast, connecting to El Shaddai, than it is to think of God as a distant paternal figure watching over me, Avinu Shebashamayim, and the same is true for other relational archetypes, other God-interfaces. Both are helpful for me, but at different times.

Dauer

[LeoSalinas22]

faith and dondi, i praise God that you both are on this forum. i praise God that you both have great knowledge of our Father in heaven. keep those scriptures rolling in! love you, guys!

[Francis king]

it troubles me to encounter faithful ppl who love God who feel that they cannot savour the delights of the temporal world with God's blessing...

yes, some games, some literature, some art, is potentially damaging to you, and there are certain themes that maybe a person shouldn't want to explore, but that is purely your choice...

I used to read a lot of horror fiction, growing up- I liked the scare factor, and the more evil and twisted and gruesome it was the better... today, I do not read it, as somewhere along the line I realised a few things- that most of them were based on real events, that by purchasing such stuff I was subconsciously supporting such acts and practises, and that by keeping these things popular I was contributing to the degradation of society... my reasoning is... if ppl are not exposed to such themes, they are not then available to be explored, and copy cat crimes are not so prevalent then...

of course, that may seem a little strange to others, that I should be so hardline, but I would not want such things to be banned outright, as then we fall into shark infested waters... rather, I would hope that ppl discern for themselves that some images and themes are not suitable for them, or others, to peruse, but ppl don't behave like that, do they...? authors write the sickest books they can as they know they'll make the most money that way, and although it's irresponsible of rap artists to glorify pimping, selling drugs and running round with guns they still do it, because it sells...

on the flip side- there is so much good art, and good literature, and good movies, and great music that isn't riddled with unsavoury themes and motifs, and again, as an adult you are free to discern what is for you and what is not, but it would be a shame for you to miss out on the good stuff because you were too scared to reject the bad when you find it...

my concern with those who deny themselves such pleasures is that this denial of art, music, literature, games, fun, life, loves, etc, etc, is a tactic often used by cults who seek to make a person less of an individual and cause a person to be so focused on God that they will become empty of any personality and open to further exploitation by the cult...

yes, God is great, etc, etc, and yes, one day you might make heaven, but if you have good intentions and try to live a decent life I don't think God would condemn you for watching a few blue movies or playing a few shoot-em-ups...

life is there to be lived and enjoyed, after all

[LeoSalinas22]

hi dauer, you make an excellent point, but in the case of :

1. comics: which i love to read since i grew up reading. and i will be frank, i actually looked up to these "false gods". (especially batman, niranjan, since i know that if he could take out superman, he can defenitely take out a small time punk like spidey!) anyways, back to topic. yes, i know for a fact that these characters in some since represent the false gods of old. especially superman. he is like a rip off of Christ. i don't see how God could be present with these things since He doesn't want us worshiping false gods.

2.masturbation:it is a thing of the flesh, no? not of Spirit. God is Spirit. when i do it i think of women. (sorry if i offend anyone with this, i am only a man) i don't want to covet God so i can't find myself lusting for Him. do i make sense?

3.music: how i love it. i listen to heavy metal. loud, fast, obnoxious noise and i love it. i used to listen to the satanic and death stuff. i try my best to stay away from it but sometimes it crawls back to me. a friend of mine suggested that i listen to christian music but it is so dorky!lol! instead i listen to bands like killswitch engage or hatebreed which is loaded with positive lyrics. they don't compare to psalms, but they get me the fix i need. i am a little iffy on God approving heavy metal and i do try to listen to stuff that reminds me of Him.

and finally, 4.video games: i am passionate for them. i grew up on video games. but i can't get God involved in especially those! i say this because when i grew up on video games, i would play them to get away from this world and go to a "fake" one. i wouldn't take my problems head on. plus if you think about it, you are in front of the tv playing, right? you are thinking about the video game for hours on end. isn't praying to a statue the same?

My girlfriend and I sometimes do things that aren't just devoted to each other, but have other focuses as well. But if we're spending that time together, it's meaningful for us and good bonding time. So what's the problem if it's not harming anyone and you make God a part of it?

Dauer

well, when you spend time with family, that is different. you can't go wrong there. there i can see getting God involved. especially when you talk about Him with your family.

[LeoSalinas22]

[quote=17th Angel;104368]*sniff sniff*

These are things that are there to make life that much more enjoyable, and worth living.

*sighs* so close but so far away, 17th.

[Faithfulservant]

I want to caution legalism here. We have liberty in Christ.. We are taught to do all things unto Christ.. Its where self-control comes in with a dose of common sense which He gave us liberally. You can have a big mac unto the Lord but its not good for you to eat them 3 meals a day.

God also made us for His good pleasure and it brings Him pleasure when we find pleasure in His creation. By being in fellowship with Him we learn to hear Him. He will convict us if there is sin in our life.. there is no need to go looking for it in everything we do..We are saturated with it and so is the world.. He knows all our secret sins that we dont even know we commit. We are under grace..if He convicts us of sin we repent and change that part of our life... He doesnt expect us to do it all at once. He is kind and not a slavemaster. Get what I mean?

this is what I meant about resting and knowing He is God. Let Him be the God and the rest will fall into place.

[LeoSalinas22]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I want to caution legalism here. We have liberty in Christ.. We are taught to do all things unto Christ.. Its where self-control comes in with a dose of common sense which He gave us liberally. You can have a big mac unto the Lord but its not good for you to eat them 3 meals a day.

God also made us for His good pleasure and it brings Him pleasure when we find pleasure in His creation. By being in fellowship with Him we learn to hear Him. He will convict us if there is sin in our life.. there is no need to go looking for it in everything we do..We are saturated with it and so is the world.. He knows all our secret sins that we dont even know we commit. We are under grace..if He convicts us of sin we repent and change that part of our life... He doesnt expect us to do it all at once. He is kind and not a slavemaster. Get what I mean?

this is what I meant about resting and knowing He is God. Let Him be the God and the rest will fall into place.

but my point is that all these things are subtle. seem harmless. i gave dauer which to me is a very good example. comic books are loaded with false gods. people actually look up to these characters instead of God. and you are right. the world is so saturated with this crap! but if you think about it, this same crap will not make us steadfast and what will happen is the whole thief in the night. i know you and dondi understand this but what about the rest of us? they are so distracted that they won't even know what hit 'em until it is too late. as far as God taking pleasure in the things He creates i understand. but the works of man? He considers an abomination. i set my self up as an example so people can see. again, i know you understand, but what about people like 17th? you said it yourself. this is life and death. this is very serious.

[Faithfulservant]

I know what your saying.. but my post is directed at you.. whom I consider a brother in the faith.. He will never let us fall a fatal fall.. If I am ever in doubt I look to Him and try to be fervent in prayer about ALL things. If Im not sure what He thinks.. I just ask Him. Prayer is as much listening as speaking.

I dont expect 17th to understand what Im saying...not really, ya know?

You can open yourself up to a stumble by being too works oriented which is what I was trying to get across.

I still play video games.. sure not the same ones. If I get the heebie jeebies which I call my discernment radar I wont play it..

I still listen to music.. instead of the Metallica I used to love I now listen to Todd Agnew or Jeremy Camp..

I still watch scary movies just not gore.. I just watched The Reaping which was good. How can we be good ambassadors of Christ if we cannot speak the same language. I come to work and tell my friend it was a good movie.. he should watch it.. he goes and sees it and we talk about it.. and the fact that it has slight biblical aspects brings up a mini bible study.. So in watching that movie Im edifying Christ.. get it? hehe

anyways. Im not sure how serious your post was.. I was just trying to impart some wisdom I gathered in my walk. Take it or leave it

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Frances King

I used to read a lot of horror fiction, growing up- I liked the scare factor, and the more evil and twisted and gruesome it was the better.

I once long ago (so long ago) when I was about 15 at this Christian camp had one counselor tell me that the horror book I was reading would have detrimental effects on me in 5 years or so. I wasn't sure what he was talking about, it was just a Stephen King novel. He said that books like that will affect how you think later in life. I wonder how much that is true. By the time I was 20, I had all but abandoned church and God. But I didn't attribute this to reading Stephen King, I had other issues besides my reading regimen going on. I think I just fell in among the wrong friends looking to fit in somewhere.

But I wonder how now much we've read in the past have become part of our thinking. It says in Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." If this is true for the Bible, I wonder if what we are exposed to has an equal effect, not only in what we read, but even in the movies, TV shows, in video games, etc, everything that we expose ourselves to.

Now as one who is trying to live a pure life in Christ, it is becoming more evident how quickly the mind can generate such random thoughts. I could be sitting down watching TV, flipping around the 500 channels on my satellite subscription and, whoa, what was that! Was she topless? Funny how there is a sudden interest to flip back to that station and check it out. And low and behold, there she is in all her glory (or all her glories, I should say)! And like there is a force that compels me to stay on that channel for a wee bit longer. Then I catch myself and ask, "what am I doing? Where are the kids? I hope my wife didn't see me", as I quickly change the channel.

I've had instances where I would be walking down the street looking straight ahead past some stores in a plaza or mall and for some reason my head snaps to the right and wouldn't you know it there is some girl in a skimpy outfit I didn't even notice before. Why at that particular moment did I turn my head to look? I didn't even know she was there. Have you ever had that happen?

Maybe my subconcious mind has been trained to look for evil all those years I ran from the Lord. Maybe I filled my head with too much base stuff that is not good for me. Maybe that's why I'm having trouble keeping clean thoughts, I dunno. But I've had some strange things like that happen to me.

[Faithfulservant]

wow what an awesome testimony

[dauer]

Leo,

well, when you spend time with family, that is different. you can't go wrong there. there i can see getting God involved. especially when you talk about Him with your family.

I'm addressing this first because it relates to everything else. I wasn't talking about my girlfriend. I was continuing your analogy of relationship with God, to say that one can do things with someone else even if they are not designed to be in full devotion to them. For example, making God a part of mowing the lawn, masturbating, or reading a comic book.

1. comics: which i love to read since i grew up reading. and i will be frank, i actually looked up to these "false gods".

If someone looks up to their father or mother, or to a rightous individual, is that making them into a false god? If by walking in the path of someone who is just, be it a real or fictitious individual, you are brought closer to God and what is just, then why does it matter if they are not God? Should we avoid emulating Mother Theresa's actions simply because she is not God? Should we for this reason not admire her actions or look up to her as a role model?

yes, i know for a fact that these characters in some since represent the false gods of old. especially superman.

If you find spiritual inspiration and meaning, if it inspires you to be a better person, in the lives and teachings of the false gods of old, is it wrong to simply learn from them? Everything comes from something, evolves out of something else, or forms in reaction to something else. How does the reading or admiring of comic book characters become worship? You could have a poster on your wall of Iron Man, you could look to it every day and smile and say, "I want to be just as good a person as you." But until you say, "Thank you Iron Man for the wonders you have given me. I praise you and am blessed by you o awesome Iron Man. You bestow miracles upon me every day." until you go that far, how is it worship?

2.masturbation:it is a thing of the flesh, no? not of Spirit. God is Spirit. when i do it i think of women. (sorry if i offend anyone with this, i am only a man) i don't want to covet God so i can't find myself lusting for Him. do i make sense?

I really don't understand why the flesh-spirit dichotomy developed in some religions so strongly. It's certainly an idea that was fed by the terribly repressive ascetism of the medieval period. Is God everywhere or just in some places? If God is everywhere, doesn't that mean God can be found in the flesh too? Imo there's really nothing wrong with thinking of women, especially if it is a partner you are close to. But let's say instead that you choose to think of God. Maybe you think of the explosion of the created world out of nothing, or you focus on God's love, or on gratitude for the gift God is about to share with you. Or you can offer up your pleasure to God. And if maybe a woman does come into your head you can remind yourself that having women in the world is a blessing from God, and redirect your thoughts back to God that way, until you can let go of the thoughts about women during masturbation that bother you.

i am a little iffy on God approving heavy metal and i do try to listen to stuff that reminds me of Him.

I used to listen to a lot of metal too. Primarily more positive bands like soad, although I also love Nightwish just because their operatic sound is so incredible, and also a lot of primus. I stopped listening to metal as much because of the way it made me feel. I would not say then that God is less present in the music, but that my subjective experience of the music was not affirming. I think probably more along the lines of what francis was saying, and why she stopped reading the horror books. But I do think that metal music can be spiritual. It's a more chthonic type of spirituality, something that gurgles up from the belly of the earth, primal. It can be very powerful and meaningful for some people.

i grew up on video games. but i can't get God involved in especially those! i say this because when i grew up on video games, i would play them to get away from this world and go to a "fake" one. i wouldn't take my problems head on.

That sounds like more of a less effective use of tools then a place where God cannot be included. I have biofeedback software at home, attached to my computer. It takes readings from my fingers. Some parts of it are like a game, where I move forward by regulating my body through breathing, meditation, becoming excited, etc. In so doing I gain greater self-awareness and discipline. I also use Second Life. In Second Life I've held events to raise awareness about the persecution in Poland, daily 20 minute interfaith meditation sits, a recent Lag B'Omer bonfire with some teachings about Shimon bar Yochai and the day. If anything, those are things that only help to bring holiness into my life, to affirm my awareness of God's presence. I'm also a big fan of rpg's and my favorites are the ones that incorporate world myths. I can see that as I play and it reminds me of God.

I used to play San Andreas a lot, but just like the music, it had a subjective negative effect on me to play so much. I would not say that God is less present in San Andreas. And I still do play it occasionally because I like the freedom to drive around and explore. I would suggest that in something like this, if there is a need to more explicitly connect it toGod, you could do the same things as I suggested with masturbation. Even with a violent game, you could say, "Dear God. We no longer sacrifice animals or people, but yet there is an aggressive part of me that has a need to still take part in these types of rituals. It is not okay to do that in a real space, so I dedicate this virtual offering to you." Violence is something I would generally rather stay away from, but still, why not include God in such a way? Some of us feel incomplete without it.

plus if you think about it, you are in front of the tv playing, right? you are thinking about the video game for hours on end. isn't praying to a statue the same?

No, because it is not prayer. If it is better for you to direct your mind to God during a game, or to include God, there are ways to do so.

Dauer

[LeoSalinas22]

hey, dondi, i am so sorry i took so long to respond. i have been backsliding lately.

I once long ago (so long ago) when I was about 15 at this Christian camp had one counselor tell me that the horror book I was reading would have detrimental effects on me in 5 years or so. I wasn't sure what he was talking about, it was just a Stephen King novel. He said that books like that will affect how you think later in life.

very true indeed. he is correct, dondi. i have the very same problem except it instead of a horror book, it was porno. i have so much trouble focusing on God now because my thoughts wander immediately! i did this to myself. i have no one to blame.

But I wonder how now much we've read in the past have become part of our thinking. It says in Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." If this is true for the Bible, I wonder if what we are exposed to has an equal effect, not only in what we read, but even in the movies, TV shows, in video games, etc, everything that we expose ourselves to.

very true, once again. i tend to see myself as a glass full of water and soda. the bad stuff is soda and knowledge of God is water. the soda just tastes so good but the more i add water, eventually there will be nothing left but cleanliness. well, right now there is more soda than there is water. its very frustrating.

Now as one who is trying to live a pure life in Christ, it is becoming more evident how quickly the mind can generate such random thoughts. I could be sitting down watching TV, flipping around the 500 channels on my satellite subscription and, whoa, what was that! Was she topless? Funny how there is a sudden interest to flip back to that station and check it out. And low and behold, there she is in all her glory (or all her glories, I should say)! And like there is a force that compels me to stay on that channel for a wee bit longer. Then I catch myself and ask, "what am I doing? Where are the kids? I hope my wife didn't see me", as I quickly change the channel.I've had instances where I would be walking down the street looking straight ahead past some stores in a plaza or mall and for some reason my head snaps to the right and wouldn't you know it there is some girl in a skimpy outfit I didn't even notice before. Why at that particular moment did I turn my head to look? I didn't even know she was there. Have you ever had that happen?

dude, i am serious when i say that you are not alone. i have a very jealous wife and two boys! i do the same thing a little too often, though, by watching gorgeous women on tv. i have a friend who likes to call the tv "la caja de el diablo". it is spanish for "the devil's box." it is a very true name for the tv if you ask me. you see, that is what i am trying to explain on this thread. that there is a HUGE difference between the Spirit and the flesh. i also have the same problem in public areas like the mall or supermarket. the women are everywhere, man! there is no running from this world. i know what you mean that you suddenly look, randomly, i mean, and for some stupid reason a beautiful woman is standing right there of all places. its like a sixth sense or something. this is where the flesh takes over.

Maybe my subconcious mind has been trained to look for evil all those years I ran from the Lord. Maybe I filled my head with too much base stuff that is not good for me. Maybe that's why I'm having trouble keeping clean thoughts, I dunno. But I've had some strange things like that happen to me.

it is not strange at all, man. we have to taste evil, too, to know what is good. God knew that in all His Infinite Wisdom.

[LeoSalinas22]

hi faith, sorry i took so long to respond.

i know what you mean by playing, listening, or experience less offending mediums but they just don't work for me. the flesh is very powerful if you know what i mean. doesn't mean i don't crucify myself everday though. it is a constant battle. sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

anyways. Im not sure how serious your post was.. I was just trying to impart some wisdom I gathered in my walk. Take it or leave it

i'll take it, faith. thank-you and God bless you.

[LeoSalinas22]

hey dauer,

sorry i took so long to respond to your post but i read it and am thinking of making a conclusion but only with your help. i need for you to answer a question. do you believe that man has a God-given spirit that connects us to God or are we all just "meat puppets"? if you are caught in a life or death situation, do you listen to your heart or do you listen to logic? i ask this because your responses are based more on fleshly indulgences and not with Spirit. i can't tell if this is a mentallity that jewish people accept or if it is a mankind mentallity. we can't give in to all of our fleshly desires, dauer. do you know what i mean? we have to listen to our heart as well, no? i hope i don't offend. just curious because i admire the jewish people a great deal. after all, they have the promise that was given to them to Abraham by God.
thanks. hope to hear from you soon.