Changing Sexual Orientation Is Possible, New Research Says

[bob x]

Juan, I don't have the time to respond to you, but will get back to you.

[bob x]

OK Juan:

the only gross presumption on my part being that of mind over matter

Can you, by taking thought, add one inch to your stature?

even sensitive subjects need to be looked at with forthright reality, even brutally if necessary

I see the brutality. I do not see the reality.

When I write academically, I suppose I näively expect to be received academically

Choosing analogies for "shock", without any factual points of similarity, is not writing "academically", it is writing provocatively. And when you get a reaction to your provocations, you then pseudo-apologize ("I am sorry you are such a baby as to feel offended" is not an apology).

Look again, without a jaundiced eye. I made no such equation. Even in bringing up NAMBLA, the point was (as usual, I’m afraid) avoided in favor of seeing insult where none existed nor was intended. The point there was that if Christians are criminals because of an organization, then what kind of presumptions should be made when an association such as NAMBLA exists?

I did not AVOID your point, I showed you that you do not have a point unless you are operating under the false assumption that NAMBLA members were "gay": you are taking for granted the equation of pedophilia with gayness so deeply that you cannot even see it when you are making the assumption.

I could dare go so far as to mention the victimization of young boys by clergy, so are all clergy paedophiles?

I did not say the equivalent of "ALL clergy are pedophiles" (I never said "ALL Christians are criminals"), rather "SOME clergy are pedophiles" (Patti is denying that, analogous to "anybody who is a pedophile is, by my definition, not a clergyman"). And: those clergy who are not pedophiles have more of a duty than just to say "Oh, we're not in favor of that" while continuing to foster the conditions that gave rise to the problem; I do not at all let the Catholic church off the hook. And the analogous point applies here: just saying "Oh, we don't favor violence" while continuing to spew the venom that motivates the violence is not going to get you off the hook.

I’m sorry if the terminology of “love the sinner, hate the sin” holds some contrary meaning, and I do agree it is discouraging among other things that there are some who take license to emphasize the term “hate.” But the essential concept bears some merit in my mind

No, it doesn't. It is my very heart that you are hating (and whether you use the word "hate" or not, that is what it is), while the "love" is all directed to a completely imaginary person who has no resemblance to me.

This really is about freedom. You want it, I want it. I am not denying you yours, why deny me mine?

??? How in the world do you think you are being "denied freedom" here? Are you one of those people who thinks "freedom of speech" means that nobody is allowed to express disagreement with or distaste for whatever you choose to say?

you prefer to see things your way and I mine

I have firsthand knowledge, you do not. I cannot make myself believe your theories about what I am, even if I preferred to, because I directly know them to be false. Now you can prefer to accept what I say or to believe that I am lying to you, but don't pretend that there is some other option.

And I am fully aware a person’s sexuality is not equal to an addiction, but there are so few examples that can rightly be contrasted with sexuality (I also think it unfair when trying to hold an intelligent conversation that the first knee-jerk reaction is an explosive emotional diatribe)

There are lots of examples you could use, but you only choose the nastiest. I choose the examples of taste in food: I enjoy blue cheese and garlic (some find them repulsive) and cannot stand mushrooms or olives (some find them delectable). Or: some find classical music thrilling, others find it boring; some enjoy rap, while others find it repugnant.
When you choose analogies for their "shock" value, don't act surprised when the reaction is shock.

it was my choice to light up that first cigarette, and every cigarette since

But the way that your brain reacted to that first cigarette, and every cigarette since, is not something you choose. Some people don't get much of a kick from nicotine. Others do, but don't get the compulsive reaction (my Mom smokes one or two cigarettes a week, and drinks a glass of wine with dinner once in a while, and doesn't always even bother to finish it: "how can I be genetically related to such a person?" I often wonder)

Gay people and straight people have the same “feel good” nerve endings in the same places (gender specific).

But not the same emotional reactions. Is the problem here that your sex life has always been purely "mechanical", and that you have never experienced passionate love? If so, I am sorry for you, but I expect, rather, that you think that only *you* know love, while *we* have only squirting genitals.
Do you, in fact, have a wife or sweetheart whom you feel deeply about? If so, what are your feelings most analogous to: is it more like a child molestation, or like a fraud, or like a drug addiction?

I can disagree with the gay lifestyle

It is not my "lifestyle", it is my LIFE. While not as offensive as other things you say, that word (given its usage as a code-word among militant Christians indicating to the audience an agreement with a whole package of attitudes) irritates me exceedingly. My "lifestyle" is that of a slovenly housekeeper and poorly-paid professor; I tried the "lifestyle" of a sharply-dressed practicing attorney but it did not suit me.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by bob x

Patti:

I burned my license to practice years ago. This was after a police beating case, in which judges took the pure fascist position, that whatever the police do is legal by definition, and my client committed suicide. My license came up for renewal, and I would have had to take an oath to support the laws of that state, which I did not feel I could do in good conscience.

So get a lawyer. You are giving up and you don’t have to. Your training in the law should work to your advantage. I realize that what I’m saying is not easy…but it makes more sense than blaming Christianity.

Ask judges to go against the police?
If these problems are real with the law enforcement, I’m sure you’re not the only one affected.

I do not believe that Jesus taught such things.
I did mis-read you, but Jesus DID teach that the ONLY way was through Him. And of course you don’t believe it, for “the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” 2 Corinthians 4:4
If you did persuade me that Jesus said them, you would only destroy my respect for Jesus.
Your respect is useless without honor.

It is BECAUSE I understand what comes of it that I detest it.
See above.

Note that Paul does not teach the absurd modern-Christian theory that we "choose" to be gay. He agrees that God *makes* us gay, but says it is a punishment for worshipping heathen idols. Well, we have some experimental evidence on that theory now: the Greek gods haven't been worshipped for many centuries, and yet there are as many gay people as ever.
It’s all fairly absurd, but it is just as absurd to suggest that God made you gay. Where does Paul agree to that?

Christianity MAKES some minds criminal.
Lack of Christianity is what makes a mind criminal. Go to a jail and ask around.

Then you believe the author of Leviticus was not speaking for God? Do you believe that author was a hateful evil man?

The author of Leviticus was Moses, it was written about 1440 b.c. (that was a while before Christ and His teachings)
He was speaking for God and Moses was definitely not a hateful or evil man.
It is a legal document. When you did practice law, if a client came to you and said something ridiculous, but yet you knew on very good authority that it wasn’t so, did you take the case? My authority is God and the lord Jesus Christ. And no, I am NOT saying that Christ invalidated the law, but I am saying that, among other beautiful things, Christ fulfilled the law, taught mercy, and forgiveness. (and the way to the Father was through the Son.)

[bob x]

You are giving up and you don’t have to. Your training in the law should work to your advantage.

I don't need to wallow in a useless fight. I was past it long ago, and regret having even brought it up again-- but I was asked.

I realize that what I’m saying is not easy…but it makes more sense than blaming Christianity.

Christianity IS to blame.

Jesus DID teach that the ONLY way was through Him.

That belief of yours, right there, is the source of all the evil and criminality that Christianity has motivated in so many people over the years. No, I do not believe that Jesus intended any such thing.

it is just as absurd to suggest that God made you gay. Where does Paul agree to that?

Read the text.

The author of Leviticus was Moses, it was written about 1440 b.c. (that was a while before Christ and His teachings)
He was speaking for God and Moses was definitely not a hateful or evil man.

So, you do believe that God wants me killed?

When you did practice law, if a client came to you and said something ridiculous, but yet you knew on very good authority that it wasn’t so, did you take the case?

LOL, I see you have never practiced law. Clients are always saying the most ridiculous things. In law, you deal with people in the grip of stupid emotional conflicts.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by bob x

Christianity IS to blame.

no, people are to blame. christianity isnt bad, its how people abuse it; wealth isnt bad, its how people abuse it; law isnt bad its how people abuse it; love and marriage, and the natural order and structure of the family that god has made isnt bad, its how people abuse it. the common thread: people not following what god has laid out.

[bob x]

the common thread: people not following what god has laid out

People following what *people like you and patti* claim that God has laid out is what turns Christians into criminals.

[BlaznFattyz]

yes, people on the outside of christianity will see that, people on the inside of chrisitianity denounce it. basically wolves in sheep clothing. you have to remember, satan was an angel of light, and he makes sin attractive, and he is not stupid, he is crafty, so he does evil from within. so these bad people may be among us, but they are not of us.

[bob x]

These "bad people" learned their evil from you, and from no-one else. Stop blaming invisible demons for what you bring about.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by bob x

These "bad people" learned their evil from you, and from no-one else. Stop blaming invisible demons for what you bring about.

no, evil is already in the hearts of men, religion is just a guise for whom they really are, and the agenda they already have. for you to think otherwise is naive.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by bob x

I don't need to wallow in a useless fight. I was past it long ago, and regret having even brought it up again-- but I was asked.

Oh no… what if you won? Well, there goes that argument.

Christianity IS to blame.

Lack of Christianity is to blame.

That belief of yours, right there, is the source of all the evil and criminality that Christianity has motivated in so many people over the years. No, I do not believe that Jesus intended any such thing.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Peter 2:2
They saw this coming a long time ago.

Read the text.

God makes you gay? Point it out to me.

So, you do believe that God wants me killed?

God loves you more than you will ever realize. You don’t really know anything about Christianity do you? Probably everything you have come in contact with has its own anti-Christianity spin on it. Tell me something, why did Jesus come to earth?

LOL, I see you have never practiced law. Clients are always saying the most ridiculous things. In law, you deal with people in the grip of stupid emotional conflicts.

You are absolutely correct; I have never practiced law. I hope you realize that this is not a stupid emotional conflict or think that I have a ridiculous need to be right. Being wrong at the end of my time on earth will not be a big deal. Can’t say the same for you.

[greymare]

Fair dinkum. It was a very emotional experience for you BobX. I hope you arent dwelling on it too much. It must be upsetting for you to have this dragged up again and yes, I know you were asked. (takes a breath) Now, for the rest of You. Pattimax etc, You and I and everyone else out there did not go through this ordeal nor can we possibley feel the pain as Bobx has. It didnt happen to us. Bobx is a fine human being as I'm sure we all can agree. His life is HIS life. Look in the mirror, honestly have a long look. Find your faults and work on them and lets try to leave others to do their own. (sorry guys, its just my maternal instinct kicking in. no more fighting or I'll send you to your rooms. and no computer for a week) love the Grey

[bob x]

evil is already in the hearts of men, religion is just a guise for whom they really are, and the agenda they already have

It might be the case that they would have been evil in some way or another, without the Christianity, but the particular agenda of gay-bashing is one that they got from Christians.

Lack of Christianity is to blame.

Hardly. People who lack any kind of exposure to Christianity do not persecute me. Muslims of course do share the gay-bashing agenda: I should be more precise and blame Abrahamic religion, rather than Christianity in particular, but we were discussing Christians.

God loves you more than you will ever realize.

I realize God's love quite well, without your "help". My creator has gifted me with many joys and blessings, and my sexuality is among the great blessings.

You don’t really know anything about Christianity do you?

You don't really know anything about me, do you?

Tell me something, why did Jesus come to earth?

To teach people to treat others, even people not like themselves, as fellow children of God.

Being wrong at the end of my time on earth will not be a big deal. Can’t say the same for you.

See now, that kind of arrogance and disdain is the ugliness in the heart of your "Christianity": it has nothing to do with why Jesus came to earth.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by greymare

Fair dinkum. It was a very emotional experience for you BobX. I hope you arent dwelling on it too much. It must be upsetting for you to have this dragged up again and yes, I know you were asked. (takes a breath) Now, for the rest of You. Pattimax etc, You and I and everyone else out there did not go through this ordeal nor can we possibley feel the pain as Bobx has. It didnt happen to us. Bobx is a fine human being as I'm sure we all can agree. His life is HIS life. Look in the mirror, honestly have a long look. Find your faults and work on them and lets try to leave others to do their own. (sorry guys, its just my maternal instinct kicking in. no more fighting or I'll send you to your rooms. and no computer for a week) love the Grey

If you are going to jump in with your alloted .02, it may behoove you to follow the conversation...Bob's character was not being discussed. Why don't you acrually read the thread and see what we are talking about? (Will your maternal instinct permit that?)

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by bob x

It might be the case that they would have been evil in some way or another, without the Christianity, but the particular agenda of gay-bashing is one that they got from Christians.

people bashing gays or people bashing christianity is ungodly. we are not to condemn, rather be compassionate; however its a two way street--the sinner who accepts and trusts jesus christ as lord and saviour is to go and sin no more and love light rather than darkness and please god rather displease him; and we all are to love god with all our hearts and love our neighbors.

[bob x]

"people bashing gays or people bashing christianity is ungodly"
Patti was of the opinion that murdering gay people was, at least at one time, *commanded* by God. What do you think?

"please god rather displease him"
I am as God made me, and to turn against my own nature would, as I see it, be profoundly against my creator.