Changing Sexual Orientation Is Possible, New Research Says

[earl]

Intolerance of homosexuality wasn't always so in the history of the Christian church:

Opinion / The Irish Times on the Web / ireland.com

earl

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Andrew / Taijasi / Zagreus!

Originally Posted by AndrewX

It's not just what you say, Blazn, or even what you don't say. And let's not pretend that this isn't about hate, or about drawing lines in the sand. You can lie to me, you can play word games and argue semantics, or insist til the cows come home that - "I did not say that." In all fairness, the only thing I can say is, "Oh, ok, my bad ... I guess you did not SAY that."

Your Jesus knows your thoughts and feelings on the matter. Your God has a pretty good clue what you really think and believe. Do you?

Seems to me like some pretty convoluted logic...you fault Christians in general for not knowing the mind of G-d, yet claim to know that mind yourself, as if you are G-d perhaps? I think by your actions you have shown a number of times how you tend to interject into what people write, implying that you know better than they what they intend or mean. Yet, ironically, you stand ready to accuse of prejudice?

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Try starting by letting go of a judgmental attitude, as if God actually appointed you to sort out who is righteous and who is not. Try starting by letting go of phobias and fears,

Absolutely wonderful advice! Care to demonstrate by example?

Originally Posted by AndrewX

and accepting that gays are people too. That's PEOPLE first, and only gays, second. Kinda like you are a person first, and only a Christian second.

While I can understand where you are coming from, at the same time it is a gross miscarriage of prejudicial intolerance not to take each and every individual on a case by case basis. From this vantage I continue...

It is a knee-jerk assumption to presume that a person, any person, cannot make personal distinctions within the guidance of their own life and the lives of those in their charge (like their children). Yes, all too often, this is whittled down to the lowest common denominator and emotional reaction. But there are those of us, a great many of us indeed (especially here at CR), who have looked at every side available and come to the conclusion that the "gay" lifestyle is not appropriate for ourselves. This does not make us homophobes or intolerant; it makes us thoughtful and considerate and, *ahem*, open-minded.

What we have here is a clash of opinions. One side is of the opinion that the homosexual lifestyle is inappropriate, the other side is of the opinion that they wish to perpetuate their personal preference.

Allow us to reframe the situation a bit to better face the issues...is the same "tolerance" to be extended to paedophiles? How about to statutory rapists? How about to murderers? Ah, but homosexuality is no crime...well, yes, in certain communities it still is...personal politics notwithstanding.

Let us continue, is the same tolerance to be extended to a cigarette smoker in a public place? Is the same tolerance to be extended to a marijuana smoker in a public place? Is the same tolerance to be extended to a hard drug user in a public place? Are these not also lifestyle choices? Lifestyle choices I and every living person has a right to disagree with?

I cannot hold sway over what goes on behind closed doors...what happens in your house is your business. Likewise, what happens in my house is none of your business, and I very much take exception to others trying to tell me (yes, tell, not persuade) how to live my life, what opinions to hold or what guidelines to use in directing my life and the lives of those in my charge.

It is a red herring, a lashing with a limp noodle, to immediately accuse of intolerance on this subject without first exploring the facts behind the lifestyle choices...for and against. Though some close their eyes to the fact, it is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle choice *not* to be gay. Because a person chooses not to be gay does not make them intolerant. Being intolerant makes a person intolerant, whether of *any* lifestyle choice.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

I want to hear about one or two of your GAY FRIENDS. Tell me about someone who you know, who is EVERY BIT the kind of friend to you as one of your heterosexual friends ... but who just happens to be gay.

I would dearly love to hear about one or two of your friends who are persons first and who just happen to be paedophiles, or heroin addicts, or armed burglers second. These too are simply lifestyle choices. In my humble opinion these are unwise lifestyle choices, but nevertheless these are lifestyle choices just the same. Even with these examples I can love the person and not condone the behavior. Can you say the same?

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by bob x

"i never said hate nor did i say i didnt love "
You don't SAY you hate-- but that is what it is. You SAY you love-- but you don't.
"i was talking about christians having the power of letting go of what they know in their heart is wrong "
*I* know what is in my heart: *YOU* do not. It is my very heart that you are asking me to cut out of me. My sexuality is one of God's great and holy blessings to me. When you call me "wrong" for seeing beauty and feeling love, you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

I see no hate. Are you sure that you know what is in your heart? You do know labeling something does not make it so, don't you?
What I do see is agenda pushing. Simple.

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by pattimax

There IS no other Savior. If you come up with something, I want names and credible documentation... You can believe the earth is flat or the moon is made of cheese, doesn't make it so.

I won't hold my breath.

This is not a solution, patti ...

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I would dearly love to hear about one or two of your friends who are persons first and who just happen to be paedophiles, or heroin addicts, or armed burglers second. These too are simply lifestyle choices. In my humble opinion these are unwise lifestyle choices, but nevertheless these are lifestyle choices just the same. Even with these examples I can love the person and not condone the behavior. Can you say the same?

The problem here, my narrow-minded, bigoted and self-righteous friend, is that these are all "lifestyle choices" which adversely affect others directly. Such people are abusing others, or are putting themselves in such dangerous circumstances (drug addicts) that they may very well - and sometimes do - hurt people.

Homosexuals do not typically HURT people, juantoo3. But you, you bunch of self-righteous, judgmental JESUS-FREAKS ... you, on the other hand, have the potential to gather together in MOBS, and either LYNCH people ... or, something far more insidious - you are just intelligent enough (though clearly lacking the LOVE that should go with it) to ORGANIZE, to LOBBY, to PITCH YOUR ROYAL FIT before government officials ... and bring about legislation that will hurt homosexuals, or will allow such hate crimes as you yourselves commit to go unpunished. And I will not say that ALL hate crimes against homosexuals are committed "in the name of Jesus." No, not all. Just PLENTY. You already demonstrate this. RIGHT HERE. RIGHT NOW.

Webster's Collegiate

bigot - a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

prejudice - a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

judgmental - characterized by a tendency to judge harshly

self-righteous - convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others : narrow-mindedly moralistic

~+~+~

No, juantoo3, it is not every Christian at C-R who demonstrates him or herself to be a bigot, prejudiced, judgmental and self-righteous in the extreme. Not by a long shot. Whatever other mistakes I may make, I will not dare to say that "Christians do x, or do not do y," as if it were that easy to draw these imaginary lines in the sand ... which you have done, which Blazn has done, and which pattimax has done.

But let us see ... if others are happy to hop on the bandwagon, and either prove their intolerance and hate, or perhaps simply use this as an excuse to redirect that hate to one of your favorite old scapegoats - ANYONE ... who just happens to call a spade, a spade.

Yes, yes, juantoo3, you have been here awhile, you have made some good posts, yadda yadda ... but we don't need to hear more about glass houses and throwing stones, and watch you try and shake this one off, or justify yourself.

God observes what is going on, the same as you and I, except that God sees through the BULL****.

And guess what, pal. SO DO I

Does that make me God? Gee, I didn't really think of it that way. If it is so, it is only because YOU said so. All I had really figured, is that I've got a little common sense, and perhaps the recognition that HOMOSEXUALS ARE PEOPLE!

But, you great PRINCE of narrow-mindedness, YOU can't even recognize and ADMIT THAT, for you were DETERMINED to argue EVEN THAT point ... and still you try to tell ME that my logic is convoluted!?!

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Andrew / Taijasi / Zagreus!

The epitome of sarcasm is to show FALSE respect. Juantoo3, you EXCEL in this area ...

But then, for someone who so vigorously argues against the very existence of the Christ within ... I SHOULD EXPECT NO MORE.

You do not follow even your OWN religious teachings, or accept what is therein taught, pattimax. WHY SHOULD you recognize the Christ in another culture, in another religion, in another people, another person, let alone another GROUP whose behavior you do not happen to condone!

It has been SO DAMN TEMPTING to simply say, in this angry post of mine, "YOU PEOPLE make me sick!" And really I only hesitate for ONE reason:

I would just have it be CLEAR, if nothing else was, that I have no antipathy toward ... those who actually BOTHER to PRACTICE the Love, the Brotherly Love, tolerance, and acceptance ... which Christ Jesus taught, and ASKED us to practice.

Why aren't you helping AIDS victims, volunteering where this deadly disease is claiming lives, if you are so convinced that homosexuality is wrong?

Here is the ONE area, when I say something like THAT, where you can turn it around, and say, "Why aren't YOU, Andrew?" And since I am not, I can only say, touche!

What you CANNOT say, is why are YOU prejudiced, and bigoted, and self-righteous, with regard to YOUR behaviour, vs. those in some other entire GROUP. And the reason you cannot say that, is that I do not look out at the world, and throw my stones, at entire GROUPS of people. And certainly I should not throw them at random individuals, here and there, whom I just happen not to agree with!

But here, we see a beautiful, shining example of the kind of HATRED, the kind of INTOLERANCE, the kind of BIGOTRY, PREJUDICE, FEAR and SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS which the Lord of Lords came before to speak out against!

And he DID so, NOT because it takes GOD, or even the Son of God to be able to DISCERN these ugly practices ... it was because he was courageous enough to bring these things to light, while no one else had the proberbial cajones.

Nor did Jesus speak self-righteously, because if ever a man was TRULY RIGHTEOUS, it was Jesus!

Yet you, pattimax, and various others (such as Blazn), YOU, you will not only fail to see the true RIGHTEOUSNESS which Christ Jesus had earned, and which he deomonstrated ... you will insert your own SELF into the way - and make of YOUR JUDGMENTAL ACTIONS - a FALSE righteousness, which allows you to JUDGE, CONDEMN, and BEMOAN others ... for something which REALLY doesn't affect you at all - or with regard to which, in the very least, you should feel compassion, understanding and sympathy.

Again, why is it not the same as I speak out, and as others speak out, with regard to what YOU have done?

Because, friends, while WHAT you are doing PLAIN, flat DIGUSTS me, I do not say, this is WHO you are, I only say it is how you are.

And your claim is that your precious Bible teaches you that homosexuality is wrong. Well whether or not that is so, YOU HAVE FAILED TO SEE THE POINT. That Bible is there, for YOU TO APPLY, TO YOUR LIFE - NOT to LORD over other poeple, so that they may live the way YOU insist.

And even if a man or woman is Christian, let HIM OR HER develop the relationship with God, and make sure that all you do is to HELP them. And if they ASK YOU for help with their sexual choices, THEN YOU MAY HELP THEM ... diplomatically, carefully and non-presumptuously so.

But YOU put the cart well before the horse, and you PRESUME to dictate to others THEIR OWN MORALITY ... based upon YOUR standards.

I am SICK of this, because I see it every day, but here on this forum, be it my last, dying act, I would do all I can to expose such SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS and HYPOCRISY.

Yet I will not JUDGE an entire GROUP of people, homosexual, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, politically conservative, or OTHERWISE ... because that only shows ignorance and narrow-mindedness.

You and your bigger dogs may tear every limb from my body (I think it was LIONS once upon a time) ... but for ONCE, the truth on this matter needs to be heard.

(And while I would never wish any true harm upon any of you, juantoo3, Blazn, pattimax, etc. ... I think I would give my right - arm - to have you all three dropped into a crown of about 10 million homosexuals marching through the streets at a gay demonstration. I would just like to see you all, packed in there together ... with no way to get your poor little self-righteous bible-thumpin selves out of there - oh, say for at least ten minutes! I dunno, maybe once they realized you needed out, the only way would be to hoist you up, and hand you over, just like at a rock concert.

Yes, that would fairly well make my day.)

[Basstian]

wow

But you, you bunch of self-righteous, judgmental JESUS-FREAKS ... you, on the other hand, have the potential to gather together in MOBS, and either LYNCH poeple ... or, something far more insidious - you are just intelligent enough (though clearly lacking the LOVE that should go with it) to ORGANIZE, to LOBBY, to PITCH YOUR ROYAL FIT before government officials ... and bring about legislation that will hurt homosexuals, or will allow such hate crimes as you yourselves commit to go unpunished. And I will not say that ALL hate crimes against homosexuals are committed "in the name of Jesus." No, not all. Just PLENTY. You already demonstrate this. RIGHT HERE. RIGHT NOW

*deep in thought*

Yet I will not JUDGE an entire GROUP of people, homosexual, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, politically conservative, or OTHERWISE ... because that only shows ignorance and narrow-mindedness.

Nothing more from my side

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, AndrewX!

Try starting by letting go of a judgmental attitude.

[AndrewX]

I am clearly quite upset by this issue ... and I freely admit that I have difficulty - focusing on one particular aspect of it, because of the milieu, the environment, the circumstances ... in which we are discussing it. I don't mean this forum; I mean America, or the UK, or perhaps any other country, in 2007 ... given what has taken place in the past few year and decades, and also the social setting of 2100 years ago in Palestine (as if that really has any direct relevance on homosexuality in today's global village).

So instead of making a further ass of myself, I will end my comments by quoting again from your Savior, as Basstian has already done earlier in the discussion:

Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone. -- John 8:7

I will stand in front of any one of you, or between the entire crowd of you, blocking a single homosexual, or even every homosexual ... clinging only to the above Biblical passage (and its meaning, as spoken by its true author) as my Shield.

Namaskar,

~Andrew

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

This is not a solution, patti ...

Attachment 607

Andrew,

How is acknowledging that there is only one true Savior sticking my head in the sand?

Posting little pictures is NOT credible docomentation. Posting little pictures is a lame defense. There is no Savior equal to Jesus Christ.

There are tribal, prehistoric, Aztec, Mayan, Andean, Ancient Iran (fun stuff), Sikhism, Buddhism, Hinduism (really fun stuff- I will make no editorial comment on their statues), Janism ("The Doctrine of Maybe"- I am serious, those words are in their dogma), Confucianism (never really liked it), Taoism (did like it), Islam (don't like the Koran among other things), Shintoism (Shinto/Japanese Buddhism), and Judaism.

Please tell me what I left out. There is NOT a living Savior in there.

Karen

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by pattimax

Andrew,

How is acknowledging that there is only one true Savior sticking my head in the sand?

Posting little pictures is NOT credible docomentation. Posting little pictures is a lame defense. There is no Savior equal to Jesus Christ.

There are tribal, prehistoric, Aztec, Mayan, Andean, Ancient Iran (fun stuff), Sikhism, Buddhism, Hinduism (really fun stuff- I will make no editorial comment on their statues), Janism ("The Doctrine of Maybe"- I am serious, those words are in their dogma), Confucianism (never really liked it), Taoism (did like it), Islam (don't like the Koran among other things), Shintoism (Shinto/Japanese Buddhism), and Judaism.

Please tell me what I left out. There is NOT a living Savior in there.

Karen

Karen, EVERY other world religion acknowledges a DIFFERENT Savior than Jesus of Nazareth. Some of them even acknowledge several ... often INCLUDING Jesus of Nazareth.

How strange, that Christianity ... or churchianity ... or YOU, anyway - do not seem ready, or capable, of acknowledging the same. That is your choice. And I'll leave it to Jesus, to explain for you (later) - why things aren't quite the way you've apparently come to believe.

Any questions there? Take 'em to God; take 'em to Jesus.

Kill the messenger, if you must ... god knows, it must be inconvenient for you ...

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Karen, EVERY other world religion acknowledges a DIFFERENT Savior than Jesus of Nazareth. Some of them even acknowledge several ... often INCLUDING Jesus of Nazareth.

How strange, that Christianity ... or churchianity ... or YOU, anyway - do not seem ready, or capable, of acknowledging the same. That is your choice. And I'll leave it to Jesus, to explain for you (later) - why things aren't quite the way you've apparently come to believe.

Any questions there? Take 'em to God; take 'em to Jesus.

Kill the messenger, if you must ... god knows, it must be inconvenient for you ...

A LIVING savior, I don't think so. And the ones that acknowledge Jesus say that He is just a prophet.

Killing messengers is not my style. Besides you ARE not saying anything, you're just following your own self serving agenda.

Are you a complete jerk?

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by pattimax

Killing messengers is not my style. Besides you ARE not saying anything, you're just following your own self serving agenda.

Are you a complete jerk?

Keep throwing your rocks, lady.



Meanwhile, I will quote ANOTHER LIVING SAVIOR ... One Whom you are too blind, too blind to see:

"Hate has never yet conquered hate; only Love conquers hate."

Your precious Jeeeeeezus taught that, as I recall. Where were you that day, Karen? Out calling people jerk? Out preaching something OTHER than Christ's doctrine of `Love thy Neighbor'?

Yes. I would think so.

Probably stoning the local harlot, spitting on homosexuals, and telling all the people of other beliefs than yours - that they were going to burn in hell, forever.

Sad, truly sad.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Keep throwing your rocks, lady.

Meanwhile, I will quote ANOTHER LIVING SAVIOR ... One Whom you are too blind, too blind to see:

"Hate has never yet conquered hate; only Love conquers hate."

Your precious Jeeeeeezus taught that, as I recall. Where were you that day, Karen? Out calling people jerk? Out preaching something OTHER than Christ's doctrine of `Love thy Neighbor'?

Yes. I would think so.

Probably stoning the local harlot, spitting on homosexuals, and telling all the people of other beliefs than yours - that they were going to burn in hell, forever.

Sad, truly sad.

I'm sorry, I suppose I left out that He was resurrected and conquered death.

"All you need is Love." Are the beatles on your list of saviors? John Lennon didn't make the cut. (That's a shame, I always liked him.)

Jesus was not above turning over tables, calling people hypocrites or a brood of vipers. I think you got off fairly easy with jerk. Besides, is it true?

Not everyone is as inflammatory as you see.

[bob x]

Though some close their eyes to the fact, it is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle choice *not* to be gay.

It is not a "lifestyle choice": it is my LIFE. Like most females, and some other males, I am attracted by the male body, and not by the female body. I was never asked to fill in a form and requisition my sense of beauty. I also enjoy blue cheese and garlic, which some others detest, and detest olives, which some others find tasty. I made no "choice" about that either.

Are you sure that you know what is in your heart?

??? What a bizarre question. Am I conscious of my own consciousness? Of course I am.

And I will not say that ALL hate crimes against homosexuals are committed "in the name of Jesus." No, not all.

I have had Christians try to kill me, twice. No-one else has ever tried to kill me. I know, of course, that if I were in a Muslim country I would be even less safe, but Christians are the only group I have realistic fears of around here. [I know, I know, you are going to tell me "those aren't real Christians", I've heard the game before.]

[AndrewX]

I am still waiting for a response from Blazn about some of his close, true gay friends. Even just ONE.

And for that matter, I would be quite OPEN to hearing the same from juantoo3, OR pattimax.

Karen, you've been very vocal. Care to share something about one of your close friends, who just happens to be gay?

I have all the time in the world ...



You would prefer not to face the fact ... that in a very likely, or realistic scenario, your `God' - before opening those Pearly Gates and admitting you into Heaven, may very well ask you one, simple question. Your God, as I like to anthropomorphically imagine Her, might very well ask you:

Tell me, Dear One, about your relationships with your homosexual friends.

So let's pretend it's not me that is asking. And for that matter, let's just let that question move into the realm of the hypothetical. If you prefer, you can even bury it, and I will assure you this - the deeper you bury it, the greater the guarantee, that the above, imagined scenario, will come quite true, exactly as I have just depicted it.

I simply wonder, can ANY ONE of you three ... even face up to the challenge? All you have to do, is admit (if it is the case) - that you cannot, because you do not have even one, single, close, gay friend. And that's fine, because that is what I figured.

It is your homework, though I will not presume to be the teacher who assigned it.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by bob x

??? What a bizarre question. Am I conscious of my own consciousness? Of course I am.


I have had Christians try to kill me, twice. No-one else has ever tried to kill me. I know, of course, that if I were in a Muslim country I would be even less safe, but Christians are the only group I have realistic fears of around here. [I know, I know, you are going to tell me "those aren't real Christians", I've heard the game before.]

When you see hate where it doesn't exist, it is usually a pre- existing condition. Obviously if people did try to kill you, it did pre-exist. The good ole boy syndrome is alive and well. Maybe you should get counseling. Blaming Christianity because of some scum-bags is rather ridiculous, don't you think?