changes on the earth

[InLove]

Hey, Peace to All Here--

I am having a bit of trouble reading everything from where I am, but I am going to try to say something here--blood cries out. I do not remember anything specifically stated in the Bible where it says that Jesus, after the resurrection, did not have blood pumping though his veins. Bandit, can you tell me where it says that? I have always believed that He was resurrected from the grave just the way He was before the Crucifixion--entirely Son of Man and entirely Son of God.

I believe that when He invited Thomas (who gets the "wrap" (sp?) for being the doubter, because he wasn't there with the others the first time Christ appeared after He rose from the grave) to check Him out--yeah, I believe His wounds were real, and healing (in more ways than one).

Maybe I am just trying to understand what you guys are saying?

InPeace,
InLove

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hey, Peace to All Here--

I am having a bit of trouble reading everything from where I am, but I am going to try to say something here--blood cries out. I do not remember anything specifically stated in the Bible where it says that Jesus, after the resurrection, did not have blood pumping though his veins. Bandit, can you tell me where it says that? I have always believed that He was resurrected from the grave just the way He was before the Crucifixion--entirely Son of Man and entirely Son of God.

I believe that when He invited Thomas (who gets the "wrap" (sp?) for being the doubter, because he wasn't there with the others the first time Christ appeared after He rose from the grave) to check Him out--yeah, I believe His wounds were real, and healing (in more ways than one).

Maybe I am just trying to understand what you guys are saying?

InPeace,
InLove

Lazarus came back that way with his blood pumping & i see a parallels there with Jesus.

InLove, you think Jesus was resurrected back into a mortal body like with bandages on his wounds? you think when Thomas put his finger into his side that Thomas finger came out with blood on it?

i can t say the bible says it that way either InLove, but I will give you that if you can show me where it says his physical heart was pumping real blood.
i dont think Jesus had that kind of body any more.

what i do see is that all the blood was shed on Calvary, which is really a type of embalming today which would have preserved his physical body while in the tomb. part of the prophecy was that Jesus would not see & did not return to corruption. he was not in the tomb long enough for his flesh to corrupt. i think it is possible that the piercing & the holes in his hands were more like scars, say wounds or holes but healed scars & no scabs that you could peel off. (i dont know because i have never seen an immortal body yet)

if Jesus had blood at the ressurection then he would be mortal & need food to survive dont you think?.

HOWEVER- i used to think that when he first rose, he rose like a zombie, & mary was not allowed to touch him because he had not yet been perfected & had not ascended to God yet. then when he appeared to the apostles, he had his perfected body. (not sure, still wondering)
then i realized, that Jesus had to ascend to God to sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat (but not literal blood like in the OT.)
he said DONT TOUCH ME. remember?

see, i dont believe we end up JUST spirits like angels, but I dont think we have mortal bodies either- I think there is something in between that only Jesus has experienced & only he knows.

what do you think INLove?

[InLove]

Hey, dear Bandit--

You know what--about the Mercy Seat--I do remember something. I will look farther into that tonight.

Regarding whether Jesus' body was physically intact before the Ascension--all I can say is to direct you to Luke 24 (verse 42, specifically). Okay, in context, it would be 40-43--and even that is for my own argumentative purposes. Really, one should read the rest.

"When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, 'Do you have anything here to eat?' They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence" (NIV).

Whether Christ did this because He needed food, or for the sake of others, so they could believe, I do not know. Probably the latter, but who are we to say?

What I do know is that the blood spilled at Calvary is what matters.

InPeace,
InLove

[Bandit]

i think it is ok to believe he was mortal.

but then we are looking at going to the bathroom, taking showers, Jesus would have been in pain from the wounds, needed to sleep etc.

i am not trying to convince anyone, because all these things have gone around in my head too. & i dont have the power to resurrect anyone, so i dont know.
but i believe.

on the other hand, since i believe he was in his immortal 'quickened' body, there is another question.
after he ate the fish, what happened to the fish?
i dont know. i can only smile & guess.

[InLove]

Well, it is interesting, but if I told you what I believe, you would probably think I did not believe---.

I think we limit God. I also think that He understands.

InPeace,
InLove

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by InLove

I think we limit God. I also think that He understands.

InPeace,
InLove

Hitting the nail on the head there, InLove.

lunamoth

[Bandit]

i am not going run anyone around with questions in a group discussion. i usually ask once or twice & that is it.
some go clear to the other end of it & say totally metaphysical.

so what do you guys believe? or would you rather not & it might make for a better one on one.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i am not going run anyone around with questions in a group discussion. i usually ask once or twice & that is it.
some go clear to the other end of it & say totally metaphysical.

so what do you guys believe? or would you rather not & it might make for a better one on one.

Sorry, I'm getting confused. What do we believe about what?

lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Bandit

...what i do see is that all the blood was shed on Calvary, which is really a type of embalming today which would have preserved his physical body while in the tomb. part of the prophecy was that Jesus would not see & did not return to corruption. he was not in the tomb long enough for his flesh to corrupt. i think it is possible that the piercing & the holes in his hands were more like scars, say wounds or holes but healed scars & no scabs that you could peel off. (i dont know because i have never seen an immortal body yet)

I do not doubt your thoughts, nor anyone else's for that matter. Because it is all an excersize in puzzle solving. However, this caught my attention so I thought I'd bring it up.

The temperature in a cave/tomb hewn from rock in the land of Israel can reach as high as 135 degree F during a spring/summer day (think middle east, not midwest)

After one day (let alone three), a human body will build up gasses so great that the body looks like the goodyear blimp, and the smell is unbelievable. Jesus' body was definitely in a tomb long enough for the old shell to degenerate in rapid fashion.

I guess that is part of the miracle of His ressurection.

v/r

Q

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Sorry, I'm getting confused. What do we believe about what?

lunamoth

did the chicken come first or the egg?

it seems CHANGES ON THE EARTH is about what heaven on earth will be like for us...or something like that. the one(s) i know to compare it to is Jesus & Adam & Eve.

in one place it says flesh & blood will not inherit the kingdom...(paraphrased)

1)when we resurrect,
will we have mortal bodies with blood, immortal bodies with immortal flesh & bone -no blood- , or strictly metaphysical.?
OR- something different.
2)in the resurrection of Jesus the same question.

so far it seems more people think we will have literal blood & be like we are right now.

i think i will drop out of this for awhile & someday start it differently.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I do not doubt your thoughts, nor anyone else's for that matter. Because it is all an excersize in puzzle solving. However, this caught my attention so I thought I'd bring it up.

The temperature in a cave/tomb hewn from rock in the land of Israel can reach as high as 135 degree F during a spring/summer day (think middle east, not midwest)

After one day (let alone three), a human body will build up gasses so great that the body looks like the goodyear blimp, and the smell is unbelievable. Jesus' body was definitely in a tomb long enough for the old shell to degenerate in rapid fashion.

I guess that is part of the miracle of His ressurection.

v/r

Q

yah. it was a miracle. that is for sure. no broken bones & the holy one would not see corruption.
that all looks good to me Q.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Bandit

did the chicken come first or the egg?

it seems CHANGES ON THE EARTH is about what heaven on earth will be like for us...or something like that. the one(s) i know to compare it to is Jesus & Adam & Eve.

in one place it says flesh & blood will not inherit the kingdom...(paraphrased)

1)when we resurrect,
will we have mortal bodies with blood, immortal bodies with immortal flesh & bone -no blood- , or strictly metaphysical.?
OR- something different.
2)in the resurrection of Jesus the same question.

so far it seems more people think we will have literal blood & be like we are right now.

i think i will drop out of this for awhile & someday start it differently.

I'm not sure, but there is an awful lot of emphasis on blood in the Bible. Apparently it carries the essence of life within it. Let's see, the very blood of Able cried out to God for the wrong done to Able. We are not to consume the life blood of a animal lest we take very essence of that animal into ourselves. And when the guard saw that Jesus' blood had separated (into water and plasma), he knew Jesus was dead (that His life had left His body).

Jesus told us to drink from the cup, the cup containing everlasting life (his blood). His body for the forgiveness of sins, and his blood for everlasting life.

We are told that Jesus was warm to the touch, He was flush with life, he ate, he breathed, yet his face and body had a radience emmenating from it.

If He revealed Himself to be living again, He must have had enough of the natural functions and rythms of a living human to convince the faithful that He was in fact alive, and not a ghost, or a Spirit.

Just a thought.

v/r

Q

[lunamoth]

For question #1, about our resurrection bodies:

Well, there's this:

35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:35-57)

Does a grain of wheat resemble the whole plant? Does an acorn resemble the oak? I think the message is that the transformation to an imperishable body will be like nothing we can envision based upon what we know about our earthly bodies.

It's not our flesh that inherits the Kingdom of God--it will be (and is) that part of us that is eternal in Christ.

And then there's also this to ponder:

18Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 19"Teacher," they said, "Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and have children for his brother. 20Now there were seven brothers. The first one married and died without leaving any children. 21The second one married the widow, but he also died, leaving no child. It was the same with the third. 22In fact, none of the seven left any children. Last of all, the woman died too. 23At the resurrection[c] whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?"

24Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'[d]? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!" (Mark 12:18-27)

Again, Jesus says here that the risen dead will not behave or be like fleshly humans--they will be like angels (whatever angels are ). And then He goes on to say that He, the I AM, is God of the living and says that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the patriarchs whose fleshy bodies have long been dead, are part of the living. The dead are part of the dead and the living flesh are part of the dead, (let the dead bury the dead). Yet, God is God of the living, those present past and future who belong to Him.

To me the message is that when we focus on earthly things, including our fleshy bodies, we are badly mistaken.

As far as question number 2, well, my own understanding of it is that He physically resurrected (and yes this literally happened) but this physical resurrection itself was a symbol for us because we are too limited to understand anything else. Material food and material signs for a material world to understand. But all pointing to Something More.

my 2 c,
lunamoth

[Quahom1]

yeah, I guess that about sums it up.


v/r

Q

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth...that is how my Bible states it. And there is a big difference between a mild-tempered person and a meek person.

The meek are those who are humble before God. Meekness has nothing to do with our lack of assertiveness toward others. Meekness has everything to do with our posture toward God.

There was once a student who went to study with a Zen master. They sat down for tea, and the student began to tell the master how hard he had worked to arrive at this moment: spending his entire life learning disciplines and studying ideas so that he would be worthy. As the student continued talking about his accomplishments, the master poured tea into his cup. The cup became full, and then it began to overflow; but the master kept pouring.

"Master! Stop!" said the student, "Can't you see you are spilling tea everywhere?"

The master stopped and looked at the student. "That is my point. You can't pour tea into a cup that is already full."

There is also a huge difference between "Happy are ..." and "Blessed are..."

This is how Matthew states it:

Blessed are the poor in spirit:

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn:
for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek:
for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness:
for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful:
for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart:
for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers:
for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye,
when men shall revile you,
and persecute you,
and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely,
for my sake.
Rejoice,
and be exceeding glad:
for great is your reward in heaven:
for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you

According to your statements, and in light of this passage, some will be on earth and some will be in Heaven?

That in and of itself is fine, as long as all get to be close to God.

Actually Mee, that is an outstanding concept. Not everyone wants to leave this world, but everyone wants the attention of God. Heaven afterall, was made for the angels and the government of God, wherein earth was made for man.

Personally, I don't want to live in a mansion with many rooms. I'd rather walk through the forests and woods, dive the seas, and trek through the deserts. I'd like to seek out the wonders of the Universe. I personally don't think Heaven would be a very good place for a soul with wanderlust. But I would like the company of God...

That would be - heavenly to me.

Interesting thought you bring out.

v/r



Q

many people say that this is refering to heaven ,but it is my belief that this scripture is refering to the earth ,With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away...rev 21;3-4when it mentions that God will be with them it doesnt mean that God will be litraly on the earth it means that

Jehovah will reside spiritually with "his peoples" in a permanent and direct way. (Compare John 4:23, 24.) What a lofty privilege for restored humanity .so yes ,as you mentioned man was made for the earth and it is Gods purpose to restore paradise conditions to the earth and his purpose will always be fullfilled
(Revelation 22:2) down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations.

"Surely just as I have figured, so it must occur; and just as I have counseled, that is what will come true."—ISAIAH 14:24

Oh, if only our original parents had been satisfied with a similar "desirable" provision in Eden’s Paradise! (Genesis 2:9) But when the global Paradise is here, and Jehovah makes provision through the leaves of those symbolic trees for "the curing of the nations."those symbolic leaves will raise believing mankind to spiritual and bodily perfection