Can you condemn children?

Elizabeth May · 06-13-2003, 09:22 PM

I guess this is for the real hardcore fundies. I mean, you see a heathen (or whatever you term them) with children. If the heathens are damned then the usual reasoning is that the kids are damned too.

My point is: if you think god condemns kids and babies, don't you think that either you or your perception of God is evil?

I mean this in a sense for discussing.

Dave the Web · 06-14-2003, 10:10 AM

Absolutely not! I would not believe it possible that anyone could be so unfeeling to their fellow human being, let alone the little children! Yet it happens! A blight indeed.

Down · 06-16-2003, 07:28 AM

I dont think anybody has the ability to condemn anyone else. It is not anyones place to do so. As far as I know, The Bible says that christ will be the only one to judge.

Then again, I havent even read that book, im not a big fan of fiction.

brian · 06-17-2003, 11:11 PM

Can I condemn children? Not at all.

I'm not very good at condemning anybody, actually.

Well, except politicians.

WHKeith · 07-04-2003, 06:53 PM

This question was one of the Big Ones for me, that helped drive me away from fundamentalist Christianity many years ago. Catholicism--not exactly what you think of as fundy nowadays--came up with the idea of limbo, a place for newborn babies who'd died before being baptized. It wasn't hell, exactrly, but it wasn't heaven, and it assuredly was not a concept founded on the scriptures!

But the fundamentalist worldview, as I understand it, admits, first, that ONLY baptized Christians can get into heaven ("I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father, but by me." --John 14:6 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."--Mark 16:16.) There is absolutely NO wiggle room here for unbaptized babies, innocent children, or pagans who've never heard the Gospel.

Some groups soften the above with the sentiment that God will take care of the ones who fall through the cracks, or by saying that we can't judge, God is responsible for it all, and His ways are mysterious, not fathomable to mere humans. Granted. I still feel the whole doctrine of hellfire is an afront to civilization and to all men of good will, and I find the fact that some DO condfemn unbaptized children to hell starkly appalling.

Dave the Web · 07-08-2003, 10:29 PM

You make an interesting point about fundamentalist beliefs. It is these extremes expressed so simply that makes myself question the application of the term Christian at all for myself.

Iacchus · 07-10-2003, 06:44 AM

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:1-6).

What does being saved have to do with being baptized, or anything else which is "external" in nature? Granted the external act is there to remind us of "the spirit" that exists behind the act, and yet to the degree that we embrace the act, but fail to embrace the spirit, then all we really practice is idolatry (externalized worship).

X Q mano · 07-10-2003, 09:40 AM

Jesus also said, "Let the small children come to me, and hinder them not, for the Kingdom of God belongs to them"

(This is translated to english from Norwegian, so I don't know if it is like what it says in the english bible, but this is what it says in the norwegian at least)

Now this was in a slightly different situation than we are discussing now, but the last sentence. The Kingdom of God belongs to them is a little interesting don't you think?

Dave the Web · 07-11-2003, 05:16 PM

Is it because children are more forgiving? Does their innocence make them more likely to do what is right, or thought of as right? Is it a generalisation too far or a metaphor? General ponderance.

Iacchus · 07-11-2003, 06:35 PM

[quote author=Down link=board=7;threadid=172;start=msg731#msg731 date=1055741331]
I dont think anybody has the ability to condemn anyone else. It is not anyones place to do so. As far as I know, The Bible says that christ will be the only one to judge.

Then again, I havent even read that book, im not a big fan of fiction.
[/quote]

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" (Matthew 7:1-3).

Fictional? Would you say this is fictional? Indeed, there's a whole wealth of resources throughout the Bible which tends to suggest otherwise ... Granted there are many who will read the Bible and misconstrue what is says, perhaps deliberately? and/or for personal gain? But this is also covered under the third commandment, "Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain."

Have you actually taken time out to read it for yourself or, is your opinion based on the behavior you see in others?

Arch · 07-12-2003, 11:05 AM

Maybe a long shot but is there a connection between calling children little lambs and Jesus being the lamb of God?

iKwak · 08-15-2003, 09:52 AM

This is only my opinion and not from any other source or from the bible...

but if the parent of the child is not a christian, the child will not enter the kingdom of God.
Or ..God knows you and everyone one of us, our whole life. Therefore, God already knows the life of the baby and will judge the baby accordingly.

I, Brian · 08-15-2003, 11:10 AM

Hi CPInteract, and welcome to comparative-religion.com!

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPInteract

if the parent of the child is not a christian, the child will not enter the kingdom of God.

Alas, this is the sort of thinking that makes the Christian perception of God somehow seem terrible.

Siege · 08-15-2003, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave the Web

Is it because children are more forgiving? Does their innocence make them more likely to do what is right, or thought of as right? Is it a generalisation too far or a metaphor? General ponderance.

I'm not picking on you, Dave, but the quote seemed apropos. For those who claim children are kind, sweet, innocent, or forgiving, how much time have you spent around children? OK, probably more than me (I'm not particularly fond of kids), but having seen 2 year olds having tantrums, not to mention at least one 6 year old, and remembering my own childhood, I disagree with depicting children as angelic creatures who are incapable of wrongdoing.

I'm not a Fundamentalist, and I've read too much that I find repellant from people who are. I can't condemn children, not even 6 year olds who are acting like 2 year olds. I don't buy the notion that children are without sin; if they are, at what point does that state wear off? I believe that since free will and perfect obedience are incompatible, Christ's death and resurrection granted salvation to all who are willing to accept it. This includes children and non-Christians. I'm a bit hazy on the details here, but, since I believe the age of one's soul is not tied to the age of one's body, I would say the choice to accept God's mercy is given to the soul after the death of the body and is always available.

CJ

WHKeith · 08-15-2003, 06:45 PM

I believe that Jesus's injunction that "such as these will inherit the kingdom of heaven" speaks of the believer's attitude and belief. Luke 18:17 adds to this statement: "Verily I say unto you, Whoever shall not receive the kingdom of God like a little child shall in no way enter it."

This seems to suggest that a childlike frame of mind--trusting, open, direct, and accepting, excited by the possibilities, approaching the Father in love rather than out of religious duty, seeking a genuine and intimate relationship with the Creator rather than one borne of ritual or the observance of mere form.

Note that the verses immediately proceeding this one in Luke have to do with the parable of the Pharisee and the publican, pointing out that the Pharisee--puffed up with pride over his observance of the Law and looking down on the humble tax collector--would not be favorably received by God.

No, Siege, I don't think Jesus had a 2-year-old's tantrums in mind when he said this!