can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter what?

[shadowman]

what benefit does god get out of making his justice be eternal damnation.

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Silent Dave

What, then, is faith?


Well then you can tell us why there are so many open-hearted people in Europe and the Americas, and so many hard-hearted people in Asia and Africa.

Also, to repeat a question I asked earlier, why are there so many morally good atheists in the world? By your reasoning they should be utterly sinful, or at least more sinful than Christians, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Faith is a willingness to believe.

As for why there are morally good atheists is because we all have a moral structure and conscience that god gave us, regardless of whether we think God exists or not.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Silent Dave

What, then, is faith?

Looking at it from another angle:

I will show what faith can mean by making comparisons with other concepts that have similar elements.

Faith, like doctrine, is a belief.

Doctrine is the belief that something is "right." Faith goes further than that in that it is the belief that something is "true."

Doctrine has more to do with logical or philosophical correctness.

Faith is more personal. It depends on human, sentient will.

Faith is also live love in that sense. Love is not just adoration and admiration. You may adore and admire someone, but not have the human, sentient will to protect and save the ones you love when they are threatened.

It's the same with faith. When you are faced with threats, persecuted because of what you believe, put under oppressive laws, etc. it's faith that gets you through that stuff. It doesn't happen that much in Western countries, but in Third World countries, beware.

Doctrine, faith and love are all about what's important to a person. Doctrine and faith are beliefs, love and faith are sentiments, but there are significant differences between them.

Doctrine is what you use to get political power. It is what you do to manipulate people, and set limits and boundaries on what people can do or believe.

Love and faith are things you do not let go of despite what happens, whether life turns sour or the world turns against you and hates you. No, you hold strong. You stay true to what you value. Love and faith are non-coercive. Nobody dictates you what to believe, nor do you dictate what others believe. Faith and love come from your natural spontaneity and innocence, provided that you have purposely chosen to have these qualities in your life.

Doctrine is about control and conformity. Love and faith are forms of affirmation, affirmation of the things most dear to you.

Hope that helps.

[Silent Dave]

Originally Posted by Pico

Faith is a willingness to believe.

As for why there are morally good atheists is because we all have a moral structure and conscience that god gave us, regardless of whether we think God exists or not.

Well most atheists are WILLING to believe in God, given ample evidence, but one could hardly say that they have faith in God.

If atheists have deliberately and knowingly hardened their hearts toward and turned away from God, should they not have turned away from his moral precepts as well? How is it that Satan led atheists away from God but not away from his rules?

Doesn't it make more sense to suppose your theology is a bit flawed?

[soma]

Sounds like hell and tormenting souls forever is a doctrine to manipulate people and not faith in a loving God. This might be similar to the people who had faith in Hitler.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by shadowman

what benefit does god get out of making his justice be eternal damnation.

He gets rid of the rif raf...

It's His game, He makes the rules, wanna play, then play by His rules.

v/r

Q

[shadowman]

so he enjoys punishing them? if not, why does he do it? wouldnt it be better to forgive the rif raf? arent you rif raf without jesus vouching for you.

what makes you rif raf different from the other rif raf?

[shadowman]

so do you think its ok that people just like you are tormented forever? because apparantly by his rules, thats what we ALL deserve.

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Silent Dave

Well most atheists are WILLING to believe in God, given ample evidence, but one could hardly say that they have faith in God.

If atheists have deliberately and knowingly hardened their hearts toward and turned away from God, should they not have turned away from his moral precepts as well? How is it that Satan led atheists away from God but not away from his rules?

Doesn't it make more sense to suppose your theology is a bit flawed?

You know that's a good question, and unfortunately i don't have much of answer for that. But to my understanding people who've hardened their hearts from God don't realize it, for they couldn't have deliberately or knowingly done it.

I wouldn't say my theology is flawed per se (if by that you mean Christianity and/or the God of the Bible is flawed) but more that i am flawed and trying to represent a flawless God.

P.S. There are some people who would like to believe but can't let themselves because of intellectual issues that they don't have settled, or because of their pride, or because of fear of what their peers/friends/family might think of them.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by shadowman

so he enjoys punishing them? if not, why does he do it? wouldnt it be better to forgive the rif raf? arent you rif raf without jesus vouching for you.

what makes you rif raf different from the other rif raf?

No. Because that simply gives those kind of people the opportunity to do it again (they never learn). Even God has limits to His patience.

And with Jesus at one's side, all is forgiven, and if it is from the heart, the "rif raf" no longer are rif raf.

See, when one turns to Christ, they become a new person inside. Same personality and character, just washed clean. The old natural way dies, and the new spiritual way is born and thrives. Worm to Coccoon to butterfly syndrome.

That is the whole point you seem to be missing.

v/r

Q

[shadowman]

so should I be able to spot christians now, since they have been radically transformed?

[shadowman]

I still dont buy that human beings deserve eternal torment.

[shadowman]

so why did he create the rif raf in the firstplace?

and what would make one rif raf choose god and another not. it seems the choice is totally random or something. something about this whole dynamic isnt adding up

[shadowman]

if rif raf without god deserve hell, it would be better that god doesnt create rif raf at all.

whats the point if hes just gonna torture them for all time.

he must enjoy the torture or else he wouldnt do it.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No. Even God has limits to His patience.
Q

Glad you know him so well. always good to have friends in HIGH places

Tao