can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter what? - Page 3

Pico · 07-15-2007, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

what do you mean you dont deserve it. he freakin created you. why would he create a bunch of beings that dont deserved to be helped or spared by him?

Because we willingly disobeyed him and the consequence for that is spiritual death and punishment in Hell. It just shows how great his love is, that he would save the ones he loves even though they greatly don't deserve it.

shadowman · 07-15-2007, 10:18 PM

oh yeah its a "gift" allright.

im glad that you were originally itching to punish me for all time, but oooh, you managed to scrape up from the odds and ends a "gift" for me.

saving people from eteernAL torment should not be looked at as miraculous or strange. its the HUMAN thing to do

shadowman · 07-15-2007, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

Because we willingly disobeyed him and the consequence for that is spiritual death and punishment in Hell. It just shows how great his love is, that he would save the ones he loves even though they greatly don't deserve it.

maybe we deserve forgiveness. a truly forgiving being wouldnt be obsessed with judgement and punishment for disobeying.

forgiveness as a mindstate wouldnt hold in mind the premise "even though I should punish you forever"

it would never dream to punish forever in the firstplace....

whats the point of it? seriously. why not forgive and heal instead of punish forever.

Pico · 07-15-2007, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

who are you to say what you deserve and dont deserve. and who is god to say these things for that matter?

Well God is the creator of all things. He has the right to make the rules. And God knows all things. God told us in his word that sinners must be judged for their sins, for they are responsible for their actions. Unfortunatley, everyoen sinned, and all are subject to God's judgement.

But as Jesus said: "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son so that all who believe in him will not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

shadowman · 07-15-2007, 10:27 PM

so whats the point of his judgement?

Pico · 07-15-2007, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

maybe we deserve forgiveness. a truly forgiving being wouldnt be obsessed with judgement and punishment for disobeying.

forgiveness as a mindstate wouldnt hold in mind the premise "even though I should punish you forever"

it would never dream to punish forever in the firstplace....

whats the point of it? seriously. why not forgive and heal instead of punish forever.

Look, you are looking at things through a limited, flawed, human perspective. We can't understand God's thoughts, for he is so far beyond us.

If you really knew God you would know he is not obsessed with damnation and judging people. He is obsessed with saving people, but he does warn what future awaits those who fail to repent, because he does not want anyone to perish.

If you haven't repented, why not? I know i've explained the doctrine of hell and salvation quite a few times, so why would someone refuse? The warnings are there, the way out is there. Why not take it?

I can see you don't understand God's ways, but there are somethigns we simply cannot understand without the Holy Spirit's help. Which is why we have to come to God by faith. Knowledge can only do so much but it takes an act of faith to come to God. After that step, you will recieve the Holy Spirit, and he will begin telling you about God and giving you understanding.

shadowman · 07-15-2007, 10:34 PM

so why doesnt he just save everyone. If I am the hero I dont run up to people saying "here is what you have to do to get saved by me"

I just save them.

and arent we getting saved from gods wrath?

he wants to pour out wrath on a few people im pretty sure.

or else he would have skipped the judgemental part and gone right onto the forgiving part....

shadowman · 07-15-2007, 10:36 PM

so now I have to believe that its ok that some people end up in hell or what?

Pico · 07-15-2007, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

so why doesnt he just save everyone. If I am the hero I dont run up to people saying "here is what you have to do to get saved by me"

I just save them.

and arent we getting saved from gods wrath?

he wants to pour out wrath on a few people im pretty sure.

or else he would have skipped the judgemental part and gone right onto the forgiving part....

Because he's not going to force people to be with him. They have free will, so they have to choose him. He can't force them to.

He wants to pour out his wrath because people's defiant disobediance angers God. And they deserve the punishment for their actions. God would rather much more save them for his mercy is greater than his judgement. But if they dont' accept his forgiveness and have their sins cleansed, they are still subject to God's judgement.

Pico · 07-15-2007, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

so now I have to believe that its ok that some people end up in hell or what?

You dont' have to be ok with it. I'm not OK with it. God isn't even OK with it, he hates having to do it, but he has no other choice. He must punish sin.

Silent Dave · 07-15-2007, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

Look, you are looking at things through a limited, flawed, human perspective. We can't understand God's thoughts, for he is so far beyond us.

If you really knew God you would know he is not obsessed with damnation and judging people. He is obsessed with saving people, but he does warn what future awaits those who fail to repent, because he does not want anyone to perish.

Hold on -- given that we're not capable of understanding God's thoughts, how do you know that God wants what you say he wants? If you cite scripture, then how do you know -- in fact, how are you CAPABLE of knowing -- that God didn't lie throughout the whole thing?

Quote:

If you haven't repented, why not? I know i've explained the doctrine of hell and salvation quite a few times, so why would someone refuse? The warnings are there, the way out is there. Why not take it?

You've explained it, perhaps, but have you proven it?

Quote:

I can see you don't understand God's ways, but there are somethigns we simply cannot understand without the Holy Spirit's help. Which is why we have to come to God by faith. Knowledge can only do so much but it takes an act of faith to come to God. After that step, you will recieve the Holy Spirit, and he will begin telling you about God and giving you understanding.

[/quote] Is faith necessary to be aware of the simple fact of God's existence? If so, then why did you state in another thread that God has planted sure and definite knowledge of his existence of all of our hearts and in the world without us, "so that we are without excuse?" If not, then why are there so many morally good non-Christians in the world?

shadowman · 07-15-2007, 10:44 PM

sounds to me like his mercy and judgement are about equal on the old "scale of judging gods intentions"

so they deserve the puniushemnt, but only deserve the forgiveness if they accept it? or do they not deserve the forgiveness at all?

shadowman · 07-15-2007, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

You dont' have to be ok with it. I'm not OK with it. God isn't even OK with it, he hates having to do it, but he has no other choice. He must punish sin.

why. maybe he could change his mind and feel that he "must forgive sin" wouldnt that be a nicer god?

Silent Dave · 07-15-2007, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

You dont' have to be ok with it. I'm not OK with it. God isn't even OK with it, he hates having to do it, but he has no other choice. He must punish sin.

Says who?

shadowman · 07-15-2007, 10:48 PM

do we have knowledge of god of the bibles existence in our hearts? how do we know? do muslims and hindus and athiests and buddhists al so have knowledge of bible god in their hearts? please explain this one some more...