can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter what?

[mee]

[quote=shadowman;114011]doesnt anyone see the utter sickness of people being tormented for all time?

quote] its amazing just what an influence false religious teaching can do . and the amount of people who get to believe the lies that the false teachers spread . false relgion has a lot to answer to God for that .

[soma]

mee, I agree scriputure can't make us understand or set us free. When people use scripture to torment and put down religious competition, we can plainly see that they don't understand, they don't love, and they are not free. They are not even that close to Christ. When we come closer to our spiritual role models, we come closer to all, and vice a versa; when we come closer to all, we come closer to our role models. Thus, we should work on expanding our minds and seeing the all-pervading consciousness working in life. The incomplete love that we have for Christ means we lack understanding because when we understand something we love it completely. In complete love there is an element of our consciousness that unites us with the love object in deep understanding. This love attraction needs to be refined and purified through constant contemplation. In a meditation to know and identify with the same source of existence as Christ, one becomes aware of the principle of pure consciousness dwelling in all things. One doesn't just unite with gross matter as if eating the food we love but one's every potential becomes activated in Christ consciousness, and the whole man or woman is born again in the consciousness united with everything. This is how God enters our human reality, and we become whole or holy.

[mee]

Originally Posted by soma

Thus, we should work on expanding our minds .

yes, and this would be a good place to start , John 17;3 Says it all really , taking in knowledge about the true God and taking in knowledge about Jesuschrist leads to everlasting life , the true God as the bible informs us is JEHOVAH psalm 83;18 (kjv) and as john3;16 says ,Jesus is Gods son .But many have been misled by religious teachers who teach manmade docrines about the true God , such as the TRINITY, the trinity is not a bible teaching and many have been led astray from pure bible teachings . yes freeing our minds from clutter works wonders .

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by mee

yes, and this would be a good place to start , John 17;3...

"First of all, it is not proper to make a theological doctrine out of one verse. Some try to take one or two verses on a subject and use them to interpret all the others. Instead of getting a balanced position, they arrive at an interpretation that is in agreement with their theological position. This is called "proof-texting" which some are guilty of doing frequently.
Second, the context of Jesus' comment was that He was speaking as a man to His God. Remember, Jesus is both God and man, second person of the Trinity, the word made flesh (John 1:1,14). Since He was both divine and man, as a man He would naturally, and properly say that His Father was the only True God. He was not denying His own divinity, but affirming the Trueness of God as was done in the OT: “And now, O Lord our God, deliver us from his hand that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that Thou alone, Lord, art God,” (Isaiah 37:20). The truth is that Jesus was a man made under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and as a man He would be subject to God. Only in this case, Jesus was subject to the Father. That is why Jesus called the Father the only true God. But it is not a phrase that excludes Christ for Christ Himself said "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58) and did not deny being called God by Thomas in John 20:28.
Third, John 17:3 must be examined in the light of the totality of scripture. We see that Jesus is called God in John 1:1,14; 8:58; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:8. Therefore, John 17:3 cannot be interpreted in a way that disagrees with other scriptures. Of course, some people simply state that John 17:3 cannot allow for Jesus being God. But the simple fact is that Jesus is called God by God and others. Therefore, the whole of scripture must be harmonized.
Fourth, this verse reflects the sonship of Jesus. The Father and the Son have a unique relationship. Jesus is the eternal Son. The terms Father and Son denote a relationship which is why God is called the God of the Son in 2 Cor. 11:31.
Fifth, Jesus identifies Himself with the Father. Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Jesus (John 10:38). Jesus is one with the Father (John 10:30). They are not divided in essence. So, in one sense Jesus is in the Father and if the Father is the only true God, then Jesus is the True God. Also, in 1 John 5:20, Jesus is called the only true God: "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." Jesus is not contradicting the word.
We cannot simply make a doctrine out of one verse. To do so is to invite error and it only serves to use the Bible to validate preconceived ideas about doctrine. " (exerpts from carm)

Anyways, if Jesus warns about hell, and he is the way, the truth, and the life, i wouldnt doubt him. if he offers peace and eternal salvation, i would take it and i wouldnt doubt him. have faith and believe in him who made all things because he loves you and ask him into your heart and ask him to forgive you and you will be saved. he will prepare a place for you in heaven where there will no longer be any tears, pain, or hunger, but everlasting life with god.

[shadowman]

I did not write this:

It is not clear from the bible that people in hell are "tortured for eternity." I'm not positive, even, what you mean by that. If you mean something like the middle ages imagery of hell, with people being burned in flames and being physically tortured, this isn't in the bible. There are only two places in the bible where hell is described as involving something like fire--one in Luke and one in revelation. In both cases, the context easily allows for this to be a metaphorical description. In other places, hell is described as "outer darkness" and that it will involve a "weeping and a gnashing of teeth." Often it is simply referred to as punishment for sin. Whatever this is, we know that God is just, and thus no one will suffer any punishment that could be considered "unfair." Yes, I realize that this fact is hard to reconcile with the eternal literal flames, tortured physically by demons, model of hell, for a number of reasons. I think the main thing that is awful about this image is that the damned apparently retain so much of their humanity, which invites sympathy for them--I think one of the things that people forsake when they reject God is that very humanity. Of the two ideas, God's goodness and perfectly just punishment for sin, and a literal eternal hell of flames and torture, the bible is much more clear on the first than on the second, so I'm in favor of dropping the second for the sake of the first, if that is necessary. Don't get me wrong--I believe the wages of sin is death, eternal death. But I don't know what this is. I don't want to know what it is. Thats why I trust in God--because I think he's the only one who could deliver me from this.

[mee]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

"First of all, it is not proper to make a theological doctrine out of one verse. Some try to take one or two verses on a subject and use them to interpret all the others. Instead of getting a balanced position, they arrive at an interpretation that is in agreement with their theological position.

very true indeed, and the trinity is just one of those things , looking to the whole of the bible and the harmony of the bible is the way to go .

Jesus told the Jews: "I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me." —John 6:38

[mee]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz;114286

[SIZE=2

if he offers peace and eternal salvation, i would take it and i wouldnt doubt him..[/size]

yes that is the way to go ,
"Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth. matthew 5;5
(Revelation 21:3) With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by mee

very true indeed, and the trinity is just one of those things , looking to the whole of the bible and the harmony of the bible is the way to go .

actually i was referring to you and you continued bashing of the trinity in a christian forum, your taking scriptures out of context to match the angle of the watchtower which makes it not match the rest of the bible, and you always changing the topic so you can copy and paste.

if god is holy, then all that is unholy cannot approach him. if jesus is the saviour, he can make one fit for heaven by forgiveness and thru faith. the rest will be judged. im sure that in that group of people that will be judged there are some who have cursed god, did much evil, and have followed satan, all the while knowing that god existed--they rejected him. i dont want to pretend to know what god has in store, but i think people that bad will end up in hell with satan and his angels. but there is a book of life that jesus opens up in heaven, and those that were not found it in are cast out. you want your name to be there.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

yes that is the way to go ,
"Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth. matthew 5;5
(Revelation 21:3) With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them.

Bashing trinitarians is not exactly condusive to the faith Mee...

I suggest you give it a rest.

v/r

Q

[Pico]

Originally Posted by shadowman

doesnt anyone see the utter sickness of people being tormented for all time?

there is NO point.

its usefulness is only as a warning.

after the fact, holding people in a state of torment is so so so so so so so so very wrong.

seriously, I cant emphasize the extremeness of the situation enough.

I read this book this week about this devout chritian who went to Hell, and then Jesus took him out and told him to tell everyone that this place is real and that it is not his desire for anyone to go there.

While he talks about hell he lists reverences to passages in the Bible that relate to what he experienced (and there is a lot of refferences he found too). Jesus rescuted him and told him that he wanted him to tell people that Hell is a real place, and it is not his desire for anyone to go there. He also said he understood how deep God's love for mankind really was and every time a person is lost to satan, it saddens him immencely.

The truth is, Hell is as bad as the Bible makes it seem to be (torment of every kind: physical, emotional, and spiritual). After reading the book, i felt so bad for the people who go there and wondered, "Why does it have to be that bad?" Then it dawned on me: Jesus said that Hell was made for the devil and his angels. Man was made for fellowship with God; man was never made to go to hell. Hell is the complete absence of God and as the bible says "All good thing come from God." So therefore Hell is the complete absence of any good things (hence where the torment comes from). Remember how God made the world perfect, and sin brought suffering? Well thanks to God's grace there is still some good in the world, but that is not the case in Hell.

Now to our limited perspectives we think people being tormented for an eternity is unjust, but we are not all-knowing like God. He is the only just, righteous judge. He is so holy that he can not even look upon sin. But thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, all who want to be with God will be cleansed of their sin, since their debt has been paid. But for the people who spend their whole lives ignoring God--the one who created them and who they owe everything to--and not wanting to be with him but to do what thier evil hearts desire, God has no choice but to give them what they want/deserve: not to be with him.

Hell is God's great justice on mankind. God's nature demands that he judges sin, and sadly some people don't accept his gift of forgiveness. It's not God's fault for them going there, but their own fault for ignoring, or failing even to aknowledge the existence of God. It says in the Bible that God put the knowledge of himself in the heart of every person, and that the wonders of his divine nature are clearly seen in his creation so people are without excuse for denying him.

We do not know these people. We do not know what they've done, thought about, or their motives. We do not know what God has done to try to bring them to himself, and we also do not know how they've rejected him. But God does.

[soma]

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 5:21-23 (in Context) Matthew 5

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:27-29 (in Context) Matthew 10

Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Matthew 23:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 23

I read a book too sounds like Hell is full of Religious Fundamentalist.

[shadowman]

so you think its ok that god lets humans undergo the torment that was meant for the devil ands his angels.

Originally Posted by Pico

I read this book this week about this devout chritian who went to Hell, and then Jesus took him out and told him to tell everyone that this place is real and that it is not his desire for anyone to go there.

While he talks about hell he lists reverences to passages in the Bible that relate to what he experienced (and there is a lot of refferences he found too). Jesus rescuted him and told him that he wanted him to tell people that Hell is a real place, and it is not his desire for anyone to go there. He also said he understood how deep God's love for mankind really was and every time a person is lost to satan, it saddens him immencely.

The truth is, Hell is as bad as the Bible makes it seem to be (torment of every kind: physical, emotional, and spiritual). After reading the book, i felt so bad for the people who go there and wondered, "Why does it have to be that bad?" Then it dawned on me: Jesus said that Hell was made for the devil and his angels. Man was made for fellowship with God; man was never made to go to hell. Hell is the complete absence of God and as the bible says "All good thing come from God." So therefore Hell is the complete absence of any good things (hence where the torment comes from). Remember how God made the world perfect, and sin brought suffering? Well thanks to God's grace there is still some good in the world, but that is not the case in Hell.

Now to our limited perspectives we think people being tormented for an eternity is unjust, but we are not all-knowing like God. He is the only just, righteous judge. He is so holy that he can not even look upon sin. But thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, all who want to be with God will be cleansed of their sin, since their debt has been paid. But for the people who spend their whole lives ignoring God--the one who created them and who they owe everything to--and not wanting to be with him but to do what thier evil hearts desire, God has no choice but to give them what they want/deserve: not to be with him.

Hell is God's great justice on mankind. God's nature demands that he judges sin, and sadly some people don't accept his gift of forgiveness. It's not God's fault for them going there, but their own fault for ignoring, or failing even to aknowledge the existence of God. It says in the Bible that God put the knowledge of himself in the heart of every person, and that the wonders of his divine nature are clearly seen in his creation so people are without excuse for denying him.

We do not know these people. We do not know what they've done, thought about, or their motives. We do not know what God has done to try to bring them to himself, and we also do not know how they've rejected him. But God does.

[Pico]

Originally Posted by shadowman

so you think its ok that god lets humans undergo the torment that was meant for the devil ands his angels.

I'm not comfortable with the idea. It pains me that people have to go through that. But they did it to themselves by denying God all their lives, and because of God's just nature he had to judge their sins. But i know that I deserve worse than some of them, and am eternally grateful that God has saved me from such a fate. I do not deserve it, but it is because of God's great love for humanity that he provided a way out for us, even though we plainly said we didn't want to be with him and do things his way when we sinned. God's mercy and love passes all knowledge.

It's just a shame some people don't accept his free gift

[shadowman]

what do you mean you dont deserve it. he freakin created you. why would he create a bunch of beings that dont deserved to be helped or spared by him?

[shadowman]

who are you to say what you deserve and dont deserve. and who is god to say these things for that matter?