Can Reconstructionism and Traditionalism work?

[I, Brian]

I've only just started reading about Reconstructionaism and Traditionalism.

Effectively they are very specific areas of Neopaganism that seem to especially seek to recreate and emulate the actual living religions of ancient peoples.

For example, Celtic Traditionalism seeks to specilaise in specific areas of Celtic belief - often based on a certain Geographic area, such as the Isle of Man, Scotland, Ireland, Brittany, or Wales.

However, although there is a definitely something to be lauded in the attitude of attempting to discern and live by ancient beliefs to any degree in the modern world, I wonder how successful Traditionalism/Reconstructionism can actually be?

For examples, particular objections can include:

1/ the limited written sources
2/ the complete difference in lifestyle

Although I appreciate that some degree of oral tradition - frmo the Celts through the Anglo-Saxons to Vikings - has been recorded for posterity, what these written sources often fail to allow for is the deeply individual and tribalisitc nature of belief.

By that I mean that - as with Hinduism - there is often wide local variation. All too often even history and mythology books make sweeping statements and effectively communicate an erroneous notion of ancient peoples have a very set and widely determined pantheon - when this is absolutely not supported by deeper research.

So reading the Ulturion Cycles of Irish folklore doesn't give a direct sense of actual everyday Irish living and folk belief - which would actually be the main thrust of daily concerns.

It's for that same reason that Ancient Egyptians (especially of the Middle to New Kingdoms) would more likely be dealing with figures such as Bes, rather than the major deities which in themselves often had no immediate role in everyday living - the temples to major deities such as Hours, Osiris, and Isis, were actually closed to the common populace.

As for the second problem - essentially, ancient peoples were shaped by their belief by the harsh realities of their existence: high infant mortality, serous diseases, the threat of famine and war. These are all issues we rarely have to face in the Western world. In fact, it is precisely because we are so distant from these threats that it can be argued that Western Culture creates its own spiritual vacuum in the first place.

And its on that point in particularly that I wonder how successful Reconstructionism and Traditionalism can be.

A starter for discussion.

[Baud]

I must confess that I am not entirely comfortable with reconstructionism in religion. The problem of the sources is certainly an important one, but I tend to think that the problem of the evoluyion of society is even greater.

The French scholar Jean Markale, a specialist of Celtic cultures in Ireland and France, although sharing a number of beliefs with Neo-Pagans (maybe even without knowing it), if opposed to reconstructionists movements. His argument is the following: Celtic society was based on a strict caste system of warriors/kings, priests/druids and craftsmen (the other members of society being considered at a somewhat lower level). The mythology of the Celts reflect this division. Moreover, the relation between the druid and the king was key to the role of the druid in society, and as there are no kings or warriors to advise in this era, the role of the druid cannot have very much to do with what it had before. Druids were also jurists, but this rols is now overtaken by lawyers, who are not priests (except in very few cases ), and the law is very different, not based on the same principles.

The historian of Indo-European history Georges Dumézil would certainly agree with Markale if he had been confronted with reconstructionism (whiwh I think he hadn't).

I tend to agree with him in the sense that trying to recreate exactly the original religion is in my opinion not very wise. Also, as Brian wrote, the concerns of the people, and therefore the deities they worshipped, were quite different at that time just because of the facts of life (high mortality, famine and war). However, this should not forbid us from adapting some pantheons or deities to the current trends of society.

Baud

[bgruagach]

I think that it is possible for a workable spiritual path to be built on a specific historical period of a specific culture, so long as a few admissions are made:

1. Like already brought up, this modern recreation can not be an exact replica of the original religion, as the setting and circumstances of modern worshippers is different enough to make a real impact. The only way to truly live as the chosen religion would be to jump in a time machine and go back to the target period... which at least currently is not possible.

2. Because it is impossible and unworkable to produce an exact replica of an ancient religion, there will be at least some degree of eclecticism involved.

3. The "ideal" of the original time period and culture is really an incomplete snapshot, as there were undoubtedly regional variations (as has been mentioned already.) Even if we assume there weren't regional variations, there were undoubtedly variations over time as different practitioners focussed on different elements of their religion, dropping some parts while bringing other parts to the fore, and even introducing new elements.

4. To reiterate one of the Principles of Wiccan Belief (I'm a Wiccan), "Our only animosity towards Christianity, or toward any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be "the only way," and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief." I'd suggest that those who have chosen reconstructionist or "traditional" paths should especially beware the all-too-common arrogance towards other spiritual paths which seems to derive from the rather questionable idea that the validity of a spiritual path should be determined based on its "purity" (whatever THAT is.) [When the idea of cultural purity is brought up, I recognize it as a codeword for racist. What culture is truly pure? Wouldn't it have to be completely isolated, and completely homogenous in itself, to be pure? Which culture can truly claim to be pure? And why should isolationist regimented-conformity xenophobia be considered a good thing?]

I wonder whether the concerns these days with being traditional and being historically/culturally correct is the current incarnation of the "witch blood" concerns of not so long ago in the Wiccan community. It used to be the case that there was an assumption that REAL witches were witches by family heritage. It seemed every time you turned a corner, some witch was trying to get others to accept them as an authority by claiming they had a granny/great-aunt/some-relative-who-was-conveniently-dead to justify their claim to the title Witch. As these claims were scrutinized, though, a shocking number of them fell apart.

Thankfully, people came to realize that Wicca as a spiritual path, and various traditions that have been established within the Wiccan community, are perfectly valid even though some of the historical claims have been disproven. If the system works for those who practice it, if they find it fulfilling, then that makes it as valid a spiritual path as any other.

Reconstructionists and traditionalists are free to build their spiritual paths on whatever source material they find inspiring, just as non-traditionalists and non-reconstructionists do. And hopefully, we can all be mature enough at this point to leave the "witchier-than-thou" or "holier-than-thou" or "more-authentic-than-thou" ego games out of it.

[I, Brian]

Certainly some good and intelligent points raised in this thread.

[Baud]

Another point I forgot to mention is the availability of information. The regional differences and evolutions of religions over time have been mentioned, but for most ancient religions the available information ios somehow limited.

Prehistoric religions are only known by archeological findings and suppositions. Celtic religions are known by archeological findings, and either through the writings of contemporary Romans or Greek scholars (who didn't necessariliy understand them), or through the writings of much later monks. Something similary applies to Nordic religions. Even if Roman, Greek or Egyptian religions are better known, the available evidence is probably insufficient to reconstruct exactly the way the gods were reverred - and even less so the way the people were actually seeing/perceiving deity at that time.

And, by the way, the term "reconstruction" means "constructing again" and by definition necessitates interpretation and some form of creation.

Baud

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

And its on that point in particularly that I wonder how successful Reconstructionism and Traditionalism can be.

A starter for discussion.

I've no doubt that they make working, very solid spiritualities. My only issue is with them claiming to be *the same* spirituality or religion as the one held by the people in the time/place they're reconstructing from.
Or even "closer to the ancient religions than Wicca."

Tribal religions don't exist apart from culture & lifestyle, and we can't re-create those cultures today. (For one thing, many aspects would be illegal; for another, nobody wants to give up surgery-with-anaesthetics & refrigerated food storage.)

So there are these huge gaps in the information base because nobody recorded aspects of daily life; written and even oral lore was only for storing *important* and *special* info... nobody wrote down the equivalent of "the itsy bitsy spider" song, or "Now I lay me down to sleep"--and in addition to gaps, there are changes. There aren't enough followers of any one "Reconstructed" religion to have the feasts & gatherings that the original religions had (not to mention that "lack of temples" problem), and they certainly don't stick to the ancient marriage practices... so the modern versions are often near-solitary, with a great deal of variation between people claiming the same "religion."

They have to make up or extrapolate parts, and adapt other parts for modern lifestyles; every change moves them farther from the original religions.

I think they may grow into a powerful & meaningful set of religions. I just don't think those will be the same religions as the ancestors'--or even the same religions as the ancestral ones would have been, if they'd survived through Christianity's movements in Europe.

[Darkwolf]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

However, although there is a definitely something to be lauded in the attitude of attempting to discern and live by ancient beliefs to any degree in the modern world, I wonder how successful Traditionalism/Reconstructionism can actually be?

For examples, particular objections can include:

1/ the limited written sources
2/ the complete difference in lifestyle

It's for that same reason that Ancient Egyptians (especially of the Middle to New Kingdoms) would more likely be dealing with figures such as Bes, rather than the major deities which in themselves often had no immediate role in everyday living - the temples to major deities such as Hours, Osiris, and Isis, were actually closed to the common populace.

Hi Brian,

As a reconstructionist myself, I thought I should say something. I'm Kemetic (ancient Egyptian recon), although I'm not a very strict recon. The groups I'm familiar with attempt to bring the faith into the modern world, adapting as necissary. There must be changes - we don't have our own country, we don't live in the Nile valley, ect.
It certainly is an interesting path, and I'm still new to it. Here's a few links to give you an idea of modern Kemetic religion:

www.kemet.org
www.per-ankh.org

Feel free to ask questions. I'll do my best to answer.

[I, Brian]

A good succinct point - and welcome to CR, Darkwolf.

[Quesocoatl]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

And its on that point in particularly that I wonder how successful Reconstructionism and Traditionalism can be.

This, here:

http://www.jdawiseman.com/papers/uni...nion-jack.html

This here's good majiq.

[Erynn]

To be honest, I don't know any Recons who are attempting to recreate the One True and Only Cultural Manifestation of their chosen spirituality. When I was writing down my ideals for CR back in the early 90s, I was very clear that there were aspects of the religions and cultures that we did not want to recreate -- human sacrfice, racist aspects of tribalism, repressive caste societies, etc. My approach to CR has always been that we needed a mix of "aisling and archaeology" -- of the visionary and the historical -- in order to create a working path based on the best of what we can recover from ancient texts, folk tradition, archaeological evidence, and other sources.

Yes, there are some Reconstruction types who are racists. Unfortunately, that seems unavoidable, though I can certainly say that a lot of Recons are completely against this aspect -- notions of racial and cultural "purity" are absurd. We generally try to call people on these attitudes when we see them, and to let them know that we don't welcome these attitudes within our community. My goal, realistically, is to consider what early Celtic religions and spiritualities might look like if they had survived Christianity and were practiced in their home cultures today. Hinduism, for instance, has changed greatly over millenia. Rituals have changed, the ways that Gods are honored and represented has changed, and Hindu society as changed as well. I have no desire or intent to live in some Iron Age mud hut with no medicine, running water or sanitary facilities. I like electricity and computers and antibiotics. I have no desire to count my social status by the number of cows and slaves I have. I'm interested in working with the deities, the spirits, and the ancestors (physical and spiritual) in ways that approach the traditional ones but are suitable for today. I'm interested in the magical, poetic, visionary, and crafting traditions such as music, poetic form, charms and honoring rites of those cultures and societies.

But what I am interested in are ways in which visions were inspired, in embracing many of the early ethical concepts expressed in the Brehon laws, in finding reasonably authentic ways of interacting with spirits that include offerings, of finding and using ritual ways that are compatible with a modern society. I've found notes from scholarly and folkloric sources that have helped with that in many ways.

Not all Recons are unfriendly to Wiccans and other Pagans. Quite a number of us actually started out that way. None of us that I know of are claiming that we have discovered THE way that our ancestors did everything. This is why we call it Reconstruction, not an unbroken tradition. I have to tell you that I most sincerely doubt anyone has any kind of unbroken family tradition and I am deeply suspicious of those who claim such things. When I write ritual or articles or books, I always take pains to separate out what are my inventions or interpretations, and what comes from historical sources. That way, people can read what I write, or observe what I do, and make their own decisions about what they want to consider or integrate into their own practices.

What I object to in Wicca and other NeoPagan paths is the claim that "Celtic" Wicca is actually Celtic, or that most modern Druids are doing anything like what the ancient Druids were doing if they can't demonstrate it. There's no evidence that the early Celts cast Wiccan circles, for instance, or that ancient Druids believed in "The God and The Goddess." If people are honest about their sources, I have no trouble with them. I have a great deal of respect for eclectics who say "yes, I created this ritual about five years ago, based on some stuff I found in the story of Diarmuid and Grainne" for instance, rather than trying to bullshit somebody by claiming it's from their family tradition, preserved without change from the Paeleolithic caves of Scotland. I have absolutely no problem with people who are practicing Wicca and NeoPagan Druidism who aren't making false claims about their traditions or practices. I actually attend Wiccan circles with some of my friends from time to time and am perfectly comfortable doing so.

I'm very aware of the differences that exist from tribe to tribe in the ancient world, and how time and place and language dialect effect the manifestations of spirituality. We can look at the accounts of the Imbas Forosnai ritual and make some educated guesses about how to create such a ritual today, but we can't ever know the exact "truth chants" that were sung over the fili in trance. We can, however, write our own and experiment with how they work. And we can tell people that Jane wrote this chant and Sean wrote the tune for it, and we followed what we could of the instructions from the medieval text to come up with the ritual we're performing. This is where honesty and respect for sources and tradition comes in.

Here's an example:

Traditionally, the Manx honored Manannan mac Lir by making offerings to him on or near the Summer Solstice. These offerings were made either at the shore of the island, or on his sacred peak. The offerings consisted of wild yellow flag irises, apparently symbolic of the gold they were paying in "rent" for the island from Manannan as first King of the island, and its protector. Knowing this, I do a ritual to Manannan each year at about midsummer for my passage into the Otherworlds and back because I see him as the Gatekeeper. I offer yellow iris if they are still in season, or other yellow flowers if they are not. I've added actions based on the folk tradition about offering beer to Shoney (a Scottish sea deity who blessed the boats and the fishing harvest), and wade out into the water to pour out a beer or ale or some mead for him. Sometimes I use milk or hazel milk for their associations with the sacred, or with inspiration and the Otherworlds. Since no traditional prayers are recorded, I offer these with my own words, songs and prayers. Before I make the offerings or approach the waters, I purify myself with burning juniper, which is given in a book on folklore as the plant burned in fireplaces at the new year to purify the house in the Scottish Highlands; I feel the adaptation of using this plant for personal purification makes sense.

So here I've taken three separate traditions, from three different places, but combined them into a harmonious act of worship for one of my primary deities. Manannan himself seems pleased with these efforts, and if or when he brings me a vision or dream with further instructions for this ritual, I'll add or change what I'm doing to suit. Ideally, this is how Reconstruction works when texts are lacking. Take the ideas, work with them to make something harmonious with the original cultures' intents and ideals, and then perform ritual with techniques and materials you have to hand. See what kind of divnatory response you get when you're done with the ritual. If the results and omens are good, continue and perhaps add some small modifications. If the results and omens are unfavorable, go back to the drawing board and see if you might have done something that violates known geasa surrounding the deity or spirit, or that viloates the spirit of the culture(s) in question and correct it. If it's working, pass the technique on to others and see if it's applicable for more than just personal purposes. In this way, newly created rituals and meditations spread within Recon communities.

I hope this clears up some of the possible questions or confusions. The Recons I know and talk to a lot are very frustrated by people presenting themselves as a part of this spiritual continuum who act in racist ways, and those who speak primarily in anger and self-righteousness, considering themselves "better" than others.

At the moment, some of us are involved in setting up a "hate-free" Recon board, where newbies and non-Recons will be welcome to come, to ask questions, and to participate in learning about Recon spiritualities and cultures. We're very tired of the antagonistic tone that many Recon/Traditionalist resources on the web tend to take, and hope to show the rest of the Pagan community a friendlier, more welcoming face. Recons are very capable of working in harmony with each other and with other religions. I know that I have been involved for years now in interfaith and multifaith work online and in my local communities. I'm not the only one.

[I, Brian]

Great post, Erynn - and nice to see the emphasis on Reconstructionism as about moving the spirituality forward in cultural terms. The cows and slaves comment was classic.

And you're in the Isle of Man? My partner is from Onchan.

[Pet Zepi]

Originally Posted by Quesocoatl

This, here:

http://www.jdawiseman.com/papers/uni...nion-jack.html

This here's good majiq.

Yes, I can see how that might apply.

I'll see your dime and raise ya by a nickel.

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/Saturnalia.html

[Erynn]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Great post, Erynn - and nice to see the emphasis on Reconstructionism as about moving the spirituality forward in cultural terms. The cows and slaves comment was classic.

And you're in the Isle of Man? My partner is from Onchan.

Thanks, but no, I'm not in Inis Man. I'm in the Pacific Northwest of the US, actually.

Since I'm interested in Manannan, it does make sense that I've done a little study on Manx folklore and mythology. I was quite delighted to find that there was a specific traditional ritual to Manannan, and I researched it using the Manx Traditionary Ballad and several books on Manx history, archaeology and folklore. The resultant ritual works very well for me, and I've modified it a number of times over the years to be more suitable. These days the ritual is quite simple, with a minimal number of tools required, and primarily consists of an offering and prayers.

John Machate has a very old version (the original) up on his Thunderpaw website. The ritual I do these days doesn't really look like that at all anymore. My approach to ritual is very different now than what's on his website. Because I started out Wiccan/GeneroPagan, I didn't really have ideas about how to move away from that format, so I was sort of substituting a 3 Realms format for the 4 directions, and not producing anything that felt quite right. Since then I've gone to a far more animist model for ritual (while not discarding the 3 Realms cosmology) and have had a lot better success. I think my rituals now tend to feel better than they did.

You can find some samples of more recent rituals that I've written on my webpage. From my webpage, you can link to my LiveJournal and read an account of my most recent Manannan ritual, from an entry in May of this year.

[I, Brian]

Hi Erynn, and apologies for the confusion.

Have you looked into the associated lore concerning Manannan? But that I mean my other half was reminding myself today that the figure appears in Welsh legend as Manawyden - not too sure on any Scots appearance without searching. Either way, the linguistic connection seems diverse beyond the Isle of Man itself, and to be principally centered in the title - mac Lir - which if I recall means "son of Lir". What is interesting to note is how this son of Lir seems to have got about in the folklore.

I presume you have been to the Isle of Man? Some great ancient sites - there's a nice ciricular burial area on top of a hill Cregnesh way that I especially like - not to mention some earthworks on Cronk Ny Arrey Laa (had to check the spelling!) - both with great views across the south of the Island.

[Pet Zepi]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

...Welsh legend..

Yes, I'm a Scot. Surname: Carlson.
(Georges & Soderburgs...heh.)

Used to own Dorset & draw pictures for the King.
Grandma Fern told me out a ball it.

(Sewzen her drapieries fur der Mrs. Totino of Totino's, Piaza Clan.
Plain Piano widder Katarakts. When I was gist 13.)

America's a real kick in the orse, AINit then!

Taking on the name Glasford ...next Spring though, to mark it with a B.

Greetings, Errwynn Earp (scuse me...I mean 14!) Erynn!

I grew up in San Francisco.

Haight-Ashbury District. Cobain Era.


{{{{Miss Jerry so bad I swear to God they buried his fat arse un me lardge.}}}}

Pois!

Pois Verte!

(And Cheers. Drinking Sangria today.
Buy der Juggenhausen.)

ERP.

Of the Black Nigga P Stones, why Dunj ya!