Buddism and the Baha'i Faith

[Vajradhara]

Namaste art,

no mas.

as you wish, my friend

[samabudhi]

Exploring this further I think it's clearer to me that the Buddha taught against "ego" than denying the existence of the spirit as such.

The Buddha taught that all phenomena, this includes the self, the ego, a grain of sand, are all dependently originated. This means that they are not inherently real. Everything is, if you will, an illusion.

[I, Brian]

Sounds very Hindu - excuse my bad, but wasn't it Vishnu who is seen to dream the universe into being?

[arthra]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

The Buddha taught that all phenomena, this includes the self, the ego, a grain of sand, are all dependently originated. This means that they are not inherently real. Everything is, if you will, an illusion.

Here's a quote i found...

"And in which way is it, Siha, that one speaking truly could say of me: 'The Samana Gotama maintains annihilation;--he teaches the doctrine of annihilation'? I proclaim, Siha, the annihilation of lust, of ill-will, of delusion; I proclaim the annihilation of the manifold conditions (of heart) which are evil and not good."--Mahavagga, vi. 31. 7.

Baha'is would accept this whole heartedly... The Seven Valleys has a chapter called "The Valley of True Poverty and Absolute Nothingness"
(Seventh Valley).

- Art

[Mettajon]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

The Buddha taught that all phenomena, this includes the self, the ego, a grain of sand, are all dependently originated. This means that they are not inherently real. Everything is, if you will, an illusion.

It's important to clarify that the Buddha didn't say that everything was
illusory in the sense of being nonexistent. What he taught was that, due
to dependent origination, impermanence, and non-self, things are real, but
aren't exactly as they appear--or as we usually imagine them to be.

This is in contradistinction to the Hindu concept of mŒya--the notion that
the phenomenal universe is really God, and that the appearances are illusions.

Sukhita hotha,

Metta Jon Maslow, Chaplain
Lien Hoa Buddhist Temple

[Mettajon]

By the way--responding to an earlier post in this thread--when the Buddha spoke
of the 'disappearance' of the Dhamma (Dharma), he wasn't referring to books--the
teachings were an oral tradition during his lifetime.

In the Saµyutta NikŒya, the Buddha is quoted as stating that so long as there is
"respect and regard for the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, the training, and
for meditative concentration, on the part of monks and nuns, and male and female
lay devotees...the Dhamma will remain free of obscuration and will not disappear"
(SN 16:13).

Sukhita hotha,
Metta Jon Maslow, Chaplain
Lien Hoa Buddhist Temple

[I, Brian]

Thanks for the comments, Mettajon, and welcome to CR.

[arthra]

Chaplain Metta Jon Maslow:

I also wanted to add my thanks for your post and a warm welcome to the Comparative Religion Forum!

- Art

[Mettajon]

Originally Posted by arthra

This maybe true from your own perspective Vajra that because Baha'i teachings recognize the soul "this is but one reason why Baha'u'llah cannot be Maitreya".

The actual concept in Buddhism as I undersrand it is called "anatta" or non-self....

Exploring this further I think it's clearer to me that the Buddha taught against "ego" than denying the existence of the spirit as such.

The Hindu belief was in Atman as immortal soul or "permanent ego" which incarnated itself over and over again...

So at the time Buddha taught selflessness and placed a premium on that rather than the Atman doctrine.

Actually, the Buddha didn't simply teach selflessness as an ethical state
to be developed. He also rejected the proto-Hindu doctrine of Atman.
If the Buddha were merely encouraging the development of selflessness,
one would be hard pressed to explain the following exchange between the
Buddha and his disciple, the Venerable Ananda:

"'The world [universe] is void', it is said. In what way is the world void?"

"Because it is void of self and of what belongs to self; therefore, it is
said, 'the world is void,' Ananda." (Saµyutta NikŒya 4:54)

Also relevant is this saying of the Buddha found in the Dhammapada:

"All phenomena are non-self [void of self]." (Dh 20:7)

The word translated as 'phenomena' includes all that is, whether living
or non-living, animate or inanimate. It's clear from the Buddha's use of
the term 'non-self' or 'void of self' that he wasn't speaking about an
ethical state of non-selfishness. Instead, he was speaking of what we
might call a metaphysical issue: the non-existence of atta (atman).

In a discourse recorded in the Majjhima NikŒya, the Buddha said:

"Bhikkhus, since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended
as true and established, then this standpoint for views, namely, 'This is
self, this the world [universe]; after death, I shall be permanent, ever-
lasting, eternal, not subject to change; I shall endure as long as eternity'
--would it not be an utterly and completely foolish teaching?"
(Alagaddèpama Sutta)

In the Sutta NipŒta, the Blessed One's intent is also quite evident:

"Be ever mindful, MogharŒja, and see the world as void. Give up
speculations about the 'self' (atta), and you shall pass beyond death.
See the world thus, and the King of Death shall not find you."
(Sn V, 15:4)

Just my little contribution to the discussion...thanks for providing
this forum.

Sukhita hotha,

Metta Jon Maslow, Chaplain
Lien Hoa Buddhist Temple

[arthra]

Again, thanks for your contributions Chaplain Mettajon!

Regarding the doctrine of anatta as "the absence of a permanent or substantial self":

The Brahmin priests of the Lord Buddha's time certainly had i think you'll agree a "strangle-hold" on the spiritual life of the people of that time and I can't help but believe the doctrine of the atman as a permanent "self" had a part to play in all this.

You must forgive me but I've tended to interpret the issue of selflessness in more "psychological" terms i suppose:

"And in which way is it, Siha, that one speaking truly could say of me: 'The Samana Gotama maintains annihilation;--he teaches the doctrine of annihilation'? I proclaim, Siha, the annihilation of lust, of ill-will, of delusion; I proclaim the annihilation of the manifold conditions (of heart) which are evil and not good."--Mahavagga, vi. 31. 7

In the Baha'i writings we have a concept of the Valley of True Poverty and Absolute Nothingness where there is dying of self.

You are certainly most welcome to your view and i value your input!

- Art

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by arthra

In the Baha'i writings we have a concept of the Valley of True Poverty and Absolute Nothingness where there is dying of self.

One of my favorite references.... "He who hath attained this station is sanctified from all that pertaineth to the world. Wherefore, if those who have come to the sea of His presence are found to possess none of the limited things of this perishable world, whether it be outer wealth or personal opinions, it mattereth not. For whatever the creatures have is limited by their own limits, and whatever the True One hath is sanctified therefrom..."

Personal opinions! Ah to have them matter not!

[Saponification]

The only problem is, Maitreya is supposed to show up once Buddhism has died out. Not before.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Saponification

The only problem is, Maitreya is supposed to show up once Buddhism has died out. Not before.

Hello Saponification!

Thanks for replying to this thread.

Please understand that I have nothing against Buddhism myself but some people even including His Holiness the Dalai Lama himself have said Buddhism is a "dying" religion. I think he said that during one of his last tours of the USA.

I think people still enjoy studying Buddhism however and learning about it.

Maitreya is the Buddha of friendship and peace and we believe Baha'u'llah has inspired an epoch of universal peace and friendship among the peoples of the age.

One manuscript called the Anagatavamsa Desana describes this age when the whole world will be "lit with His glory and power". The name "Baha" means light and glory and likewise you will find what is related to the term frequently used in the Baha'i Writings, the "Abha" Kingdom or the Kingdom of Abha related to the Sanskrit term "Abha"... Amit Abha or "boundless light".

In the Anadatavamsa Desana it is said that "during the age of Maitreya people will only know the difference between night and day by hearing the crowing of the cock" ..... Today we have light at night nad during the day and people use clocks more to tell time... Abdul-Baha, the eldest son of Baha'u'llah described the twentieth century as the "century of light" and indeed electricity has become commonplace in many parts of the globe so that peopel no longer go simply by the light of the sun to rise from slumber.

There is also described in the Anagatavamsa Desana that in this age there will be the "supranormal power of flying thorugh the air". Only in this age have we advanced in aerodynamics and shrunk the world... so advances in electricty and air flight have we seen in this age the greater recognition of the oneness of the planet and the need for world peace which is a cardinal teaching of Baha'u'llah.

John Clifford Holt wrote in the introduction to this text of the Anagatavamsa Desana:

"It is possible that the origins of his cult (Maitreya) were influenced by the diffusion throughout ancient northern India of Zoroastrian soterioological beliefs beliefs concerning Saoshyant the victorius cosmic figure expected to lead the forces of goodness and light to triumph over the forces of evil and darkness at the end of time"

- P. 2 Anagatavamsa Desana " Translated by Udaya Meddgama "The Sermon of the Chronicle to be" First edition Delhi 1993 by Motilal Barnarsidas

Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Zoroastrian prophecies as well and many Zoroastrians in Iran have become Baha'is believing this.

- Art

[Saponification]

A teacher at the Centre I go and I have spoken about the Dalai Lama. We've come to the conclusion he... says a lot of things. While we mean no disrespect towards him, he says a lot of stuff. Things that go against Buddhism, are contradictry and the like. Most Buddhists I know take what he says with a grain of salt.

Buddhism is growing in the West. Western Buddhism is a seperate school and it's growing rapidly. I strongly doubit it will ever be up there with Christianity, but it will be big. "Old Buddhism" is evolving into "New Buddhism."

Maitreya will show up when Buddhism is totally dead, not just dying. Even if it is dying as His Holiness says, it won't be dead for a long time.

[arthra]

Well you're certainly welcome to your opinion...

and I've enjoyed sharing with you some of my thinking on the subject...

Since the topic here is Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith you might like the following article:

http://bahai-library.com/encyclopedia/buddhism.html

Also thanks for reviving this long dormant thread!

- Art