Buddhism and death

[Tajik]

hello, brothers! I read somewhere that in Buddhism there are sects who have got their specific standpoints to the issue of persons who might be allowed to enter nirvana after death. I heard that in one of the sects only monks can get to nirvana and in the other the simple adherers can do. If you know any information on this matter, would you mind sharing with me? I would be grateful.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Tajik,

welcome to the Comparative Religion forum! Enjoy your stay

broadly speaking you are talking about the difference between Hinyana and Mahayana Buddhism, two overarching vehicles or groups within Buddhism.

generally speaking the terms Hinyana and Mahayana denote this very difference... the Hinyana is called the lesser vehicle because it primarily focuses upon the monastics with regards to attaining the final fruit whereas the Mahayana is called the greater vehicle because it includes the laity with regards to the final fruit.

that said, the Pali canon which is the canon of scripture that the Hinyana schools (though there is only one extant school now, Theraveda) does indicate that lay people can Awaken and attain Liberation. at a certain point it becomes fairly academic and rather unrelated to the actual practice in my estimation.

metta,

~v

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Tajik

hello, brothers! I read somewhere that in Buddhism there are sects who have got their specific standpoints to the issue of persons who might be allowed to enter nirvana after death. I heard that in one of the sects only monks can get to nirvana and in the other the simple adherers can do.

Hello Tajik. Good to meet you. There may have been a reason why you were asking about entering Nirvana after death. I just wanted to point out that Nirvana is a state one would attain in this life, not in the afterlife.

It seems the Pali Canon does indicate that lay people can Awaken and attain Liberation. However, these appear to be fairly rare instances. Moreover, the awakened ones don't remain lay people for long: they become full-time practitioners and teachers.

Siddhartha may have downplayed the need for special religious authority. However, the Pali Canon does emphasize the role of special knowledge or "wisdom" along with specific specialized practices that comprise the devotee's personal discipline. The ideal end result is a certain special kind of person - i.e., an adept.

The Pali Canon's descriptions of the adept's traits tend to have an elitist bent to them. In this connection, I'd say the Buddhist approach of working out ones own salvation by one's own efforts seems quite different from Christianity, which offers universal dispensation of Grace to anyone who accepts that Jesus died for their sins.

Some observers would say that Buddhism is indeed elitist. I would further suggest that popularized versions of Buddhism (e.g., Pure Land) may actually be incompatible with attainment of Nirvana by truncating various aspects of practice. And this on the pretext of making it universally accessible. More later.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

In this connection, I'd say the Buddhist approach of working out ones own salvation by one's own efforts seems quite different from Christianity, which offers universal dispensation of Grace to anyone who accepts that Jesus died for their sins.

Christianity requires working out one's own salvation--it's just we also have the help from God, as well.

Phillipians 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Christianity requires working out one's own salvation--it's just we also have the help from God, as well.

Phillipians 2:12-13

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Yes, I see. But the part about it being "God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" would suggest that it is G-d's action, not the individual's.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Yes, I see. But the part about it being "God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" would suggest that it is G-d's action, not the individual's.

Actually, it's more like a two-way street.

(Sorry for pulling thread off topic.)

[Tajik]

Thank you, dear Vajradhara and Netti-Netti! I am very grateful for your information. If you dont mind I would like to ask you another question
In Buddhizm after death one meets one`s own karma. Doesnt it coincide with punishment and reward in semitic religions? Is there any similarity with them? To what extend can they look like each other? Isnt "reward and punishment by God" the same as "karma" but translated in budhist`s terms?
Thanks!

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Tajik

Thank you, dear Vajradhara and Netti-Netti! I am very grateful for your information. If you dont mind I would like to ask you another question
In Buddhizm after death one meets one`s own karma. Doesnt it coincide with punishment and reward in semitic religions? Is there any similarity with them? To what extend can they look like each other? Isnt "reward and punishment by God" the same as "karma" but translated in budhist`s terms?
Thanks!

Karma can come to fruition at any time, to contemplate it deeply could only lead to derangement!

s.


Misconduct&Repercussion

[Snoopy]

"These four imponderables are not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about them would go mad and experience vexation. Which four? The Buddha-range of the Buddhas [i.e. the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha] .... The jhana-range of one absorbed in jhana [i.e. the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhana] .... The results of kamma .... Speculation about [the first moment, purpose, etc., of] the cosmos is an imponderable that is not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about these things would go mad and experience vexation."

- Acintita Sutta.

s.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Tajik,

thank you for the pst.

Originally Posted by Tajik

In Buddhizm after death one meets one`s own karma.

there is no "z" in Buddhism

however, ones karma is in a continual state of ripening, as it were. simply put when the causes and conditions are present the karma manifests and ripens and when they are not karma does not.

now, in truth, we are being a bit lose with the terms. Karma is, literally, a beings intentional thoughts, actions and words and the fruit of these things is called Vipaka and it is this which we experience as positive or negative not karma, per se.

so... Vipaka will ripen when the correct causes and conditions are present which could be in the present arising, the inbetween states or the next airising.

Doesnt it coincide with punishment and reward in semitic religions?

not really. there is no punishment nor any reward and there is no external agent or process by which such a thing could come about.

we don't say that a farmer is being rewarded when he tends his crop, waters and weeds it and it comes in, we say that the positive outcome has been created by his positive actions similarly we don't say that the farmer is being punished when he chooses not to water and weed his field and the crop fails.

Is there any similarity with them?

i don't see any.

Isnt "reward and punishment by God" the same as "karma" but translated in budhist`s terms?

Thanks!

that is actually a great question! it was one which the Buddha had to addrress at various points in his 50 years of expounding the Dharma and it is answered in two primary ways, from a religious point of view and from a philosophical point of view. rather than do that, however, i think you may benefit from reading this explanation of Karma and Vipaka:

Basic Buddhism: The Theory of Karma

metta,

~v

[Dream]

Thank you for all of the information, and I have enjoyed the discussions. The links are informative as well, and I spent a little time on those.