Born with belief?

[InLove]

Originally posted by Thunk

People that dedicate much time to prayer hope to be rewarded and fulfilled by God. Surely a just God would rather all this time and energy were spent on helping the needy or the Planet?

Surely God would not be so insecure as to need hours of adulation and demonstrations of faith?

So I guess that Mother Theresa and Gandhi were just wasting time?

InPeace,
InLove

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by THUNK

Too often I find those that belong to a religion are consumed by thier desire to get close to God and 'book thier place in Heaven'.
Such behaviour seems to me, selfish and self absorbed. Monks seek positive emmotional well - being as thier currency in the same way as a businessman derives money for his life inputs. Whats the difference?

Welcome!

In my opinion these are two separate motivations. It is one thing to be consumed by a desire to become closer to God, and quite another to desire to "book their place in heaven." The former is not selfish nor self-absorbed, because in my experience you must detach from self and be willing to be transformed in order to grow spiritually. In so doing, you are not necessarily seeking happiness or contentment. In fact, such spiritual growth can be confusing, tumultuous, and quite difficult, but one persists because one knows that growing closer to God will transform them into a better person, one that is more loving and forgiving, patient and kind. One seeks to transcend the mundane and free themselves from as many of one's petty desires and faults as possible, freeing one's spirit to join God.

This desire of joining with the Big Divine Something that I call God is not the same as desiring some sort of pseudo-earthly paradise that most people think of as Heaven. Some people are focused on entering such a place, but that is not necessarily involved in a person's worship of the Divine. It just depends on the person. Personally, I did find my own desires for such a paradise to be self-absorbed, and have since detached from them. But to each his/her own, and I would not want to take away what for some gives them the hope to get through each day. I believe we do not all need to be the same in our spirituality, and our needs are different, so it naturally follows that our foci will be as well. What is selfish to one person may not be for another.

People that dedicate much time to prayer hope to be rewarded and fulfilled by God. Surely a just God would rather all this time and energy were spent on helping the needy or the Planet?

Actually, that is not always the case. Prayer/meditation/worship are profoundly personal actions, and people have diverse reasons for doing such activities. People that dedicate a great deal of time to prayer may hope to be rewarded by God, or they may not. I do not. I am not focused on reward, and the mere act of living and having a connection to the Divine is fulfillment enough for me to feel that worship is appropriate. I worship because I feel God deserves worship, if for no other reason than the sheer joy of life, of Creation, of my opportunity to experience spirituality.

Worship/prayer/meditation is for me: first, a celebration (literally, sometimes with music and dance) of God/the Divine and life. Secondly, it is a time for introspection, to honestly assess myself and my thoughts and feelings, to be still and try to listen to my inner voice about things that concern me. Thirdly, it is a time to gain rest and energy to take out into my job and research (which focuses on conservation and environmental justice). One cannot run on empty all the time. Just as the physical body needs rest, so does the spirit. Prayer and meditation are times for me to bring my weariness, my cares, my anxieties before the Divine and rest in the stillness of God's Presence. This is necessary for me to continue slogging on in my attempt to change the world. Perhaps stronger people than I need no such rest, but I acknowledge that I need rejuvenation spiritually, and I don't feel this is a bad or selfish thing. I'm only one little human, after all. Finally, for many (including me) prayer/meditation is a way to change the world and help our planet. Many Druids, for example, have peace rituals about once a month, in which we meditate on and visualize peace. Many Christians pray for people and events all over the world, asking God to intercede. Perhaps you don't believe such things matter, but many of us firmly believe that positive thought and/or appealing to the Divine matter.

Surely God would not be so insecure as to need hours of adulation and demonstrations of faith?

I do not believe God needs anything, really. I think we have spiritual needs, and these may be met by worship, prayer, and/or meditation. It is not that God needs our worship, but rather that there is great joy in the dissolution of the self and its embrace by the Divine. In my experience, the union of created being with Creative Being yields the greatest potential for the self to become of less importance as well as the distinction between self and other to evaporate, leaving one with a deep sense of humility and yet also confidence, of love of all God's creation, and a commitment to reflect the divine love in this world.

[InLove]

Originally posted by path_of_one

I do not believe God needs anything, really. I think we have spiritual needs, and these may be met by worship, prayer, and/or meditation. It is not that God needs our worship, but rather that there is great joy in the dissolution of the self and its embrace by the Divine.

Thanks, path_of_one--I was having a little trouble wording my thoughts. This is beautifully stated.

And by the way, Thunk--I overlooked saying "Welcome to CR".

InPeace,
InLove

[Blessed87]

Originally Posted by THUNK

My first ever posting to such a forum:

You say 'there is something within everyone that seeks God'.

You're right, I should've worded that better! What I mean to say it that there is something in us that seeks spirituality.

Originally Posted by THUNK

]I say there is something within me that seeks answers to help me make sense of my life.
I dont belong to any organised religion but I consider myself very spirtual and of good moral fibre.
Surely God would not be so insecure as to need hours of adulation and demonstrations of faith?

You're right, God doesn't need our demonstrations of faith, but He certainly deserves it. Psalm 24:1 says, "The earth is the Lord's and everything in it, the world and all who live in it."

It's not by our goodness that we have this privilege to come to Him and offer our lives, it's only through His mercy in allowing us to come. Psalm 5:7 says, "But I, by Your great mercy, will come into your house; in reverence I will bow down toward Your holy temple."

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

We are all born with an awareness of God - of "something else" we cannot fathom or understand.

Religion attempts to explain this to us. Many will accept a particular religion's definitions and constructs of faith for explaining this "something else".

However, it is also the case that other may judge religion itself and find it wanting. As religion teaches that there is God, then where religion is seen as deeply flawed, then so it is reasoned belief in God - even God itself - must also be flawed.

Is this something you would agree with?

Thanks to Samabudhi for actually bringing this up on another thread.

No I don't agree. It appears to me that others would see this but I don't. However, I came out of a church that does not heed to all the man made traditions, religious beliefs & things that keep getting passed down to generations & I honestly find no flaws in the teaching I got, except for may be 1%. On the other hand I can see where others would go out searching for something different leaving there religions. After visiting & searching several of the man made religions & there churches, which were honestly quite dead, with vain repitions & lacking...(where baseball games have more energy) I can say with an honest heart, I would not trade the love & what I got in the Bible from my church for any of it.

I recieved the Holy Ghost at a very young age & I am very aware there is one true God. So there again, I would not agree that God is flawed, neither has the BIble ever failed me or any part of my life. I consider myself fortunate & blessed beyond measure by the Lord .

I think I do agree that religions are very flawed, stuck on certain issues & fail to expound into new dimensions with the Lord & understanding & quick understanding in the written Word.

Do I understand it all? No, but I am trying by seeking His will.

[THUNK]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Welcome!
Worship/prayer/meditation is for me: first, a celebration (literally, sometimes with music and dance) of God/the Divine and life. Secondly, it is a time for introspection, to honestly assess myself and my thoughts and feelings, to be still and try to listen to my inner voice about things that concern me. Thirdly, it is a time to gain rest and energy

Many Druids, for example, have peace rituals about once a month, in which we meditate on and visualize peace. Many Christians pray for people and events all over the world, asking God to intercede. Perhaps you don't believe such things matter, but many of us firmly believe that positive thought and/or appealing to the Divine matter.

Thankyou very much for your thoughtful replies.

Worship I acknowledge has a place. The issue is the amount of time expended in such a process. Some religious people worship several times per day. If they were truly spiritual they would of course see that this time spent on 'self' might be better given over to truly needy people / enviromental causes & tasks. Worship at the end of the day gives the user pleasure so however you cut it, is essentially self indulgent and delivers to the user pleasure as a final outcome in one guise or another.

Nothing wrong with pleasure but there is something very wrong with people that dont 'put themselves out' and give real time and effort to aid other people, or in my case other species.

[InLove]

Hi,Thunk and All--

Maybe what you are trying to say is that, if people are going to worship, perhaps they should "worship in their hearts as they go"? I believe this (and I also value the quiet times.)

InPeace,
InLove

[THUNK]

Originally Posted by Blessed87

You're right, God doesn't need our demonstrations of faith, but He certainly deserves it. Psalm 24:1 says, "The earth is the Lord's and everything in it, the world and all who live in it."

Thankyou.

But, does your God deserve such time and energy? Imagine the energy that could be bought to bare in the doing of good tasks that provide a practical value added outcome to the recipient.

I am disheartened by Mans enviromental vandalism so I put time and energy into doing practical stuff to counter - balance such effects.

The religious Lady near me spends a great deal of time in Church worshiping, so she has less time and energy to effect practical good change. To me her behaviour is somehow a little selfish when there is so much practical work she could do if she worshiped less. If I were God I know what Id prefer her to do and it wouldnt be praising my exsistence quite so much.

[InLove]

Hi--Peace to All Here ,

I believe we all have different gifts--it sounds like what is in your heart is to help heal the suffering earth that humankind has abused and afflicted.

I just wanted to say that I don't know exactly what your neighbor does at her church where she spends so much time, but I can tell you that the church I attend has an outreach ministry to the needy--we have a food pantry and a financial relief fund. There are other ministries there, such as music and children's ministries, which are geared to inspire brotherhood and love toward all people, as well as love for the earth and responsibility toward the environment.

InPeace,
InLove

[THUNK]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hi--Peace to All Here ,

I believe we all have different gifts--it sounds like what is in your heart is to help heal the suffering earth that humankind has abused and afflicted.

I just wanted to say that I don't know exactly what your neighbor does at her church where she spends so much time, but I can tell you that the church I attend has an outreach ministry to the needy--we have a food pantry and a financial relief fund. There are other ministries there, such as music and children's ministries, which are geared to inspire brotherhood and love toward all people, as well as love for the earth and responsibility toward the environment.

InPeace,
InLove

I merely seek to understand life and Human nature.

In summary I find too many religious people wear thier religion like a badge and imagine the mere fact they act 'religiously' and undertake worship is good enough without much effort in truly selfless endeavour.

Thier religiousity often doesnt extend to significant, true or effective input in the furtherence of good causes.
For example, where I live in Hertfordshire England, there is a Quaker group. All appear very rich. Why do they cling to this wealth??
Surely God would want say 80% of this wealth (essentially stuff & money) given to those without a bowl with which to eat or to revive ancient forests.

You see these people arent really totally moral and selfless through thier actions. ACTION SPEAK FAR LOUDER THAN MERE WORDS AND WORSHIP.
This I think shows where there true soul / motivations lie.

A lack of action cannot be counter - balanced by worship & a love of God.

[Blessed87]

Originally Posted by THUNK

You see these people arent really totally moral and selfless through thier actions. ACTION SPEAK FAR LOUDER THAN MERE WORDS AND WORSHIP.
This I think shows where there true soul / motivations lie.

A lack of action cannot be counter - balanced by worship & a love of God.

I agree. "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." James 2:14-17

I think you're right in saying that many people are spending too much time thinking about what the next church activity is rather than the immediate needs around them, both spiritual and physical, I know I've been that way far too long.

[tadpole]

i don't remember being born.

[InLove]

Neither do I, tadpole . But the evidence seems to point in that direction?

Welcome to CR--I don't think I have said that to you yet. If I have, and have forgotten, then well, since I can't remember being born...

You will forgive me?

InPeace,
InLove

[tadpole]

thank you in love for replying to my messages and your warm welcome. i am just learning to navigate this forum business (i haven't ever done this before) so i apologize for my tardy reply. by the way, i was just looking for my tao te ching book so i could tell you which trans. it is. it's hiding but i promise to find it.