"Bloodline of the Grail"

[WHKeith]

Originally Posted by WiccanWade
And, I've always really thought it to be interesting that the term for "Lord" comes from Adonai, or some such (I'd have to look it up to feel 100% accurate on my spelling, there), which is clearly a derivation of Adonis, a vegitation, or yearly dying Lord*.

Actually, the word lord doesn't itself come from Adonai. It's old Norse, originally--"hlaf-weard" or "loaf-keeper", meaning the guy who kept the bread. Adonai does mean "lord," however, as does, interestingly enough, "Baal," who was YHWH's main competitor in the old days.

The connection with YHWH--the Tetragrammaton--was that when the Jewish priest or rabbi was reading the Torah and came to the Holy Name which was NOT to be uttered, "YHWH," he would substitute the word "Lord," or "Adonai." Often, the Hebrew vowel marks for Adonai would be written above the name YHWH as a reminder; later translators mistakenly put the whole thing together to come up with the name "YaHoWaiH," which became the name "Jehovah" or, even later, "Yahweh."

I hadn't connected Adonis with Adonai originally; thought they were two different but homonymic roots. In fact, though, Adonis was originally a Syrian god, and word appears to have come from the Phoenecian word "adon," again meaning "lord." Adonis was the Syrian/Greek version of the agricultural god Tammuz, and Aphrodite's lover, forced to spend part of the year in the underworld with Persephone, and part with Aphrodite, and part wherever he wanted.

While a number of deity names and even more deity concepts were shared around the eastern Mediterranean, I haven't seen any hard data on YHWH originating with the Egyptians. However, it is interesting to note that the name "Moses" IS Egyptian, as Genesis explains--from "Meses," "to draw forth," the same name as is found in the name "Ra-meses." I'd be interested in seeing what anyone might have on the Egyptian-YHWH connection.

[WiccanWade]

Originally Posted by WHKeith

Actually, the word lord doesn't itself come from Adonai. It's old Norse, originally--"hlaf-weard" or "loaf-keeper", meaning the guy who kept the bread. Adonai does mean "lord," however, as does, interestingly enough, "Baal," who was YHWH's main competitor in the old days.

I should have made it more clear, in that I was referring to the term which is translated as "Lord" in The Bible, which I have read is Adoni or Adonai, or some variation there of. Without my book in froint of me, my spelling's crap!

Originally Posted by WHKeith

The connection with YHWH--the Tetragrammaton--was that when the Jewish priest or rabbi was reading the Torah and came to the Holy Name which was NOT to be uttered, "YHWH," he would substitute the word "Lord," or "Adonai." Often, the Hebrew vowel marks for Adonai would be written above the name YHWH as a reminder; later translators mistakenly put the whole thing together to come up with the name "YaHoWaiH," which became the name "Jehovah" or, even later, "Yahweh."

Now, I am aware of the 4-fold name of God. However, where'd ya' find the rest of this info. from, may I ask? I like to read!

Originally Posted by WHKeith

I hadn't connected Adonis with Adonai originally; thought they were two different but homonymic roots. In fact, though, Adonis was originally a Syrian god, and word appears to have come from the Phoenecian word "adon," again meaning "lord." Adonis was the Syrian/Greek version of the agricultural god Tammuz, and Aphrodite's lover, forced to spend part of the year in the underworld with Persephone, and part with Aphrodite, and part wherever he wanted.

Oh, I was merely pointing out Adonis' Vegitation God aspect to Brian, through His mythic "geneology". Nothing more.

So...what's anyone think about my newly formed spiritual name??? Heh heh heh...

[WiccanWade]

Originally Posted by WHKeith

Actually, the word lord doesn't itself come from Adonai. It's old Norse, originally--"hlaf-weard" or "loaf-keeper", meaning the guy who kept the bread. Adonai does mean "lord," however, as does, interestingly enough, "Baal," who was YHWH's main competitor in the old days.

I found this in Janet & Stewart Farrars' book "The Witches' God", thgrough which they say, "ADONI [rather than Adonia]: ("Lord") Phoenician anual dying vegitation God, lover of Astarte/Ashteroth." And, then, below they list the following deities linked under the definition of the God Adonis: DUMIZI/TAMMUS/ADONI. Which is, of course, why I wrote the following (based purely oin what I've read in their book. Being a foillower of a Celtic Path, this is clearly NOT (unfortunately) my strong point by any stretch of one's imagination!

* Upon checking a simple fact, I have found that Adoni (not to be confused with Adonis, although His predicessor) is Phonecian for "Lord", and is a dying/vegitation God, as well; and lover of Ashteroth/Astarte (whom later became Aphrodite through Inanna/Ishtar).

Originally Posted by WHKeith

I hadn't connected Adonis with Adonai originally; thought they were two different but homonymic roots. In fact, though, Adonis was originally a Syrian god, and word appears to have come from the Phoenecian word "adon," again meaning "lord." Adonis was the Syrian/Greek version of the agricultural god Tammuz, and Aphrodite's lover, forced to spend part of the year in the underworld with Persephone, and part with Aphrodite, and part wherever he wanted.

[Stormdancer]

WiccanWade,
I loved your information , and yes , I have studied it.

Nothing is new under the sun, that's for sure.

[Stormdancer]

The Bloodline book is like any other book , you have to kinda wade through it .

There is some info. in it that is, FUN...

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Zdrastvuitsye, hola, shalom, salaam, Dia dhuit, hej, namastar ji, konnichiwa, squeak, meow, :wave: Gordy.

This discussion reminds me of a discussion I was involved in when I was taking an ethnic studies class (it was either Wicca and Neopaganism or Ethnicity and the Occult) concerning a particular article we had to read titled When Is a Celt Not A Celt (i don't recall what issue of Gnosis magazine it was from, but I could look it up if anybody's interested .) Three books mentioned in the article that remind me of the "Bloodline of the Grail" tome are Witta by Edain McCoy, Faery Wicca by Kisma Stepavich and 21 Lessons of Merlyn by Douglas Monroe. Each book (according to the author of the article) made some blatantly questionable assertions in the text, including one where (according to one of the authors) England was covered in pumpkin vines during the Celtic era and another claimed that the ancient Irish worshipped the potato (might have been the same author.)

There was another discussion (this time online) about an archeological dig that supposedly was a Roman fort and another discussion about some artifacts found somewhere around Bat Creek (I think that was the place) that "proved" ancient Israelites/Judeans discovered America centuries before Columbus. Heck, there is an ancient mound in Ohio that also "proves" that the ancient Israelites/Judeans were here (Hannukiah Mound.) Again, if anybody's interested, I could try to find the sites again.

Anyway, to paraphrase a "quote": there's a customer born every minute.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

this link may be of some interest to folks:

http://www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/scn/faq532.html

here's a little snippet:

. The other, more probable version of the story describes Leifur sailing on a planned voyage to lands to the west of Greenland that had been sighted 15 years earlier by Bjarni. He landed at places called Helluland and Markland and wintered at Vínland, and returned back to Greenland.

Geir Odden writes: In 986 Eiríkr sail away from Iceland bound for Greenland together with many families willing to settle on Greenland. Together with him is Bjarni Herjólfsson's father. When Bjarni Herjólfsson arrives Iceland later this summer he is told his father has left Iceland bound for Greenland. He decides to go to him on Greenland. Stormy weather and fog takes him away off the course and he drifts to the American east coast. Here he finds three diferent lands, but he never went ashore and never named them. Approximately 1000: Leifr Eiriksson buys Bjarni's ship and decide to search for the lands Bjarni saw. He travels the opposite direction and lands first in the land Bjarni saw last. He names it Helluland, because it is a land fuilt with flat stones and not fertile. In the second land he finds lot of threes and big forests and name it Markland for its forests. The second land is very rich and fertile with corn and wild grapes. He name it Vinland after the grapes or because of it's good meadows. He wintered at Vínland, and returned back to Greenland the next summer.

[juantoo3]

Regards to everyone!

"'Bloodline of the Grail' - ... it's a terrible example of how someone can rewrite history, "

Wow, yet another super cool thread! I read a book some years ago, I don't recall the authors names, but I seem to recall it was a collaboration of three writers. I believe it was called "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", or something like that. It seems to me they were promoting that Jesus not only was married to Mary Magdelane, but that they had at least one child. Long story short, it attempted to trace a route that involved England and France, through the Knights Templars, and ending in the Merovingian Kings. It was all kind of sketchy to me then, and with nothing else to associate it with, the premise got set on a back shelf in my mind. Now there is also the "DaVinci Code", which intentionally or not, raises some of the same issues.

I am a big fan of history, and have long commented that if I could afford to pursue a degree for the sheer joy of it, I would be a historian. Even so, I find a lack in my comprehension when held against some of the things you have brought up. I know who Herodotus (et al) was, but I have not had the pleasure of reading their works. I have been composing an overall historic sketch, necessarily condensed, into which developments of pertinence to me personally are expanded upon. This is an ongoing project for the better part of 20 years, although in fairness I haven't brought any significant changes into it for probably 8 or 10 of those years. I bring this up to illustrate that "history", most probably because of the medium involved (and on a much larger level because of the politics involved), is slanted to the views of the author. This was already brought up, so I am not divulging anything new, just hopefully casting a somewhat different light on the matter. I have not read "Bloodline of the Grail", but I am somewhat familiar with the storyline.

Is anybody here familiar with "The Traditions of Glastonbury?" The author is E. Raymond Capt. Perhaps you would be willing to confirm or deny some of the matters he presents. I will try to give a greatly condensed version.

Joseph of Arimathea was Jesus' uncle, Mary's (mum) brother, and he was a merchant involved in the tin trade. His ship(s) used to collect raw tin in the South of England around Glastonbury. According to the local tradition there, Jesus traveled with his uncle to England during at least some of his "missing" years, and established a church there. This church was later recognized by the Catholic church during their Great Schism as being the first "Christian" church established, but this is an aside. The wooden wattle church was later enshrined by what became the Abbey there that now lies in ruins since the time of Henry VIII. Joseph "the tin man" is said to have brought several of the followers of Jesus, including his mother and Mary Magdalane, to this place some time after the execution of Jesus. The Abbey is the same place where Arthur and Guinivere (sp) were said to have been buried, and might shed some light on the mythical search for the Holy Grail, owing in part to the proximity to Avalon. Any input?

Closely related, is the story behind the "Lia Fael" (sp?), the Stone of Scone. As I understand it, every British Monarch since the 1200's or earlier, and Irish and Scottish Kings before, has been coronated while sitting upon that very stone (with the exception of Bloody Mary). The coronation chair has a special shelf in it specifically for the purpose. The stone is said to have been brought to Ireland after the King of Judah was taken into exile into Babylon by Nebuchadnezzer. The King's sons were put to death before his eyes, so the royal line was considered extinguished by some. However, the prophet Jeremiah is said to have gathered up the King's daughters and an entourage (which included the stone, said to have been the pillow that Jacob rested his head upon the night he had the dream that he climbed a ladder and wrestled an angel of God), and sailed for Ireland via Iberia (Spain). One of the King's daughters married a prince in Spain, and my familiarity with that branch ends there. The other daughter went on to Ireland and married an Irish prince, and founded the House of Tara. The stone so well imbued with British history, is reported to be of a type or kind that is not found endemic in the British Isles. Also, B'irit-ish (or some like form), is said to translate as the "People of the Covenant". It is interesting that it was reported in Bible Archeology Review a number of years back, that two signet rings that either belonged to Jeremiah himself, or to his scribe Baruch, had been found. I don't recall exactly where, but it was in the British Isles. I want to say Ireland, but at the moment it would be a guess. Any input to this as well?

"Ah, yes...I know of America's Stonehendge. It may have, actually, been built by the Celts. In fact, there's legend that one Native American tribe was, actually, Welsh, in origin! Someone told me about it, and I wrote it down, so i could look into it further, but...lost the sticky note. Anyway, one of Berry Fell's collegues, Gloria what's-her-name (it escapes me, now) has found Ogham inscriptions in the U.S., as well as inscriptions to Epona, which even depict a woman sitting atop a horse."

I know of Barry Fell, and I would like to eventually get around to reading his work, as well as that of Gloria Farley. Ms. Farley found a stone in New Mexico I believe it was, that had the Ten Commandments written (was it Ogham, or Phoenician/Semitic? I forget now). I believe it is called the "Decalogue stone", or something like that. A Biblical scholar I am quite fond of, Dr. Arnold Murray, occasionally addresses some of these things. He has presented Ogham inscriptions found throughout the US, from Tennessee to New Mexico to Wyoming. I have seen references to pre-Colombian and pre-Erickson Spanish and other European languages as well, and Phoenician/Semitic. Then there is the finding of a couple of artifacts in the Serpent Mounds in Ohio inscribed with very early Semitic Hebrew, dated into the BC era. I believe they are called the "Kensington Runestones." It has been a while since I looked into these things, so I may be a little off in some of my presentations, but the gist is there. If anyone is concerned, I will be happy to look them up again, most are on the web.

I was not aware of the ruin in New England. Thanks.

I have long been of the mind that man was far more mobile and resourceful than the scientific community and establishment historians are wont to give credit for.

Has anybody here looked into the disbursement of the ten tribes of Israel? Because of some of the similarities among certain Native American tribes' religious beliefs compared to that of Semitic Hebrews, I am inclined to think that some may be descended from the disbursement. There are distinct physical and sociological differences between the Eastern tribes and the Western tribes, and from those of the Southwest desert. It is not unreasonable in my mind to find association with the Eastern tribes to Semitic tribes, the Western tribes with Oriental tribes, and SW tribes with Central American tribes (Mexico). But because these tribes were nomadic in large degree, and interacted amongst each other, it is difficult at best to trace.

Finally, on the subject of contemporaneous existence of humans with dinosaurs, is anyone here familiar with the site in Glen Rose Texas, in which human and sauropod footprints are found side by side in the same rock strata? I have been to the site, and walked in the prints myself. The site is immediately adjacent to a state historical site rife with dino prints. These, as far as I know, were the first dino prints recorded and acknowledged. The official state position attempts to debunk the human prints, but if one is diligent enough to seek them, they are there. There is a foundation located nearby, which perhaps inappropriately calls itself the "Creation Evidence Museum", that has conducted a great deal of research in the area, uncovering many examples of human prints, as well as an "axe" that could not have been cast in our current atmosphere (something to do with the chemical makeup of the composition of the metal).

Related is some intriguing information I got my hands on pertaining to a South American civilization (I want to say Inca, but I am probably mistaken) that featured dinos regularly on its ceremonial burial pottery. A gentleman being interviewed displayed a collection he had gathered that filled a small gallery. There were representations of dinos in combat, in everyday "play", in being used as pack animals by humans, and being hunted by humans. These "idols" were not appreciated by the Spanish Conquistadors, who regularly destroyed them as they found them, but they were so prevalent they supposedly are still regularly found. The concept of gigantic lizards was completely foreign to the Spanish, and anything they did not understand (and many things they did understand), were destroyed in the effort to "Christianize" and subjugate the "heathens." It wasn't until the advent of fossil archeology and the descriptions of dinosaurs that Western minds were opened to the concept of a giant reptile. But to have a civilization interact intimately with them is still a subject widely renounced by authority. Yet the Congolese "dino" demonstrates at least the possibility.

I am no authority on any of this. These are merely some interesting tidbits that have crossed my path over the years. I welcome any constructive input in these subjects.

[WiccanWade]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

"'Bloodline of the Grail' - ... it's a terrible example of how someone can rewrite history, "

Actually, as far as I can tell, some of it may be quite well researched, as it seems to be validated through the excellent book "The Tomb of God". Anyone have any thought about *this* book? ;-)

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I am a big fan of history, and have long commented that if I could afford to pursue a degree for the sheer joy of it, I would be a historian.

Actually, I've decided to double-major in both Religious Studies (in a dept. which would be appropriate for a Wiccan] and Anthropology (which I believe both compliment each other) and minoring in Psychology. Whew...wish me luck, because college is dreadfully expensive!

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Is anybody here familiar with "The Traditions of Glastonbury?" The author is E. Raymond Capt. Perhaps you would be willing to confirm or deny some of the matters he presents. I will try to give a greatly condensed version.

Actually, I know a great deal about Glastonbury/Avalon! ;o)

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Joseph of Arimathea was Jesus' uncle, Mary's (mum) brother, and he was a merchant involved in the tin trade. His ship(s) used to collect raw tin in the South of England around Glastonbury. According to the local tradition there, Jesus traveled with his uncle to England during at least some of his "missing" years, and established a church there. This church was later recognized by the Catholic church during their Great Schism as being the first "Christian" church established, but this is an aside. The wooden wattle church was later enshrined by what became the Abbey there that now lies in ruins since the time of Henry VIII. Joseph "the tin man" is said to have brought several of the followers of Jesus, including his mother and Mary Magdalane, to this place some time after the execution of Jesus. The Abbey is the same place where Arthur and Guinivere (sp) were said to have been buried, and might shed some light on the mythical search for the Holy Grail, owing in part to the proximity to Avalon. Any input?

Yes, it is true (well, surely mythically, with regard to local legend). He buried the Holy Grail in Avalon and struck his staff into the ground near the Chalice Well complex (Weary Hill propper, which is how it got its name, from those coming with Joseph on the ship), which took root and blossomed forth as a Hawthorn Tree.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Closely related, is the story behind the "Lia Fael" (sp?), the Stone of Scone. As I understand it, every British Monarch since the 1200's or earlier, and Irish and Scottish Kings before, has been coronated while sitting upon that very stone (with the exception of Bloody Mary). The coronation chair has a special shelf in it specifically for the purpose. The stone is said to have been brought to Ireland after the King of Judah was taken into exile into Babylon by Nebuchadnezzer. The King's sons were put to death before his eyes, so the royal line was considered extinguished by some. However, the prophet Jeremiah is said to have gathered up the King's daughters and an entourage (which included the stone, said to have been the pillow that Jacob rested his head upon the night he had the dream that he climbed a ladder and wrestled an angel of God), and sailed for Ireland via Iberia (Spain). One of the King's daughters married a prince in Spain, and my familiarity with that branch ends there. The other daughter went on to Ireland and married an Irish prince, and founded the House of Tara. The stone so well imbued with British history, is reported to be of a type or kind that is not found endemic in the British Isles.

The Lia Fail, or Stone of Destiny was one of the 4 holy treasures which were brought with the Tuatha De Dannan to Ireland, from their mythic cities. It is said to either sing or scream when the true king sits upon it. Some speciulate that the Tuatha De Dannan brought it with Them from northern Germany.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Also, B'irit-ish (or some like form), is said to translate as the "People of the Covenant". It is interesting that it was reported in Bible Archeology Review a number of years back, that two signet rings that either belonged to Jeremiah himself, or to his scribe Baruch, had been found. I don't recall exactly where, but it was in the British Isles. I want to say Ireland, but at the moment it would be a guess. Any input to this as well?

The British Isl;es most likely get their name from 2 sources, one is from the Brythonic speaking people, or the P-Celts, which include speakers of the following languages: Welsh, Breton & Cornish. However, the most likely instance, in that countries in the British Isles were frequently named after Goddesses, it surely gets its name from Brigantia ["High One"].

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Ms. Farley found a stone in New Mexico I believe it was, that had the Ten Commandments written (was it Ogham, or Phoenician/Semitic? I forget now). I believe it is called the "Decalogue stone", or something like that.

I can find no evidence that she so-translated the stone as such. *shrugs*

Originally Posted by juantoo3

A Biblical scholar I am quite fond of, Dr. Arnold Murray, occasionally addresses some of these things. He has presented Ogham inscriptions found throughout the US, from Tennessee to New Mexico to Wyoming. I have seen references to pre-Colombian and pre-Erickson Spanish and other European languages as well, and Phoenician/Semitic.

How interesting. What books has he written?

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Then there is the finding of a couple of artifacts in the Serpent Mounds in Ohio inscribed with very early Semitic Hebrew, dated into the BC era. I believe they are called the "Kensington Runestones." It has been a while since I looked into these things, so I may be a little off in some of my presentations, but the gist is there. If anyone is concerned, I will be happy to look them up again, most are on the web.

If I remember correctly, they also found reprisentations of the Horned God, too. But, I'd have to check, again. Although, I am not one to really rely on the Web, when scholarship really comes into play (I like to cite my sources). Does anyone know of any well researched (unbiased) books about Serpent Mound?

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I was not aware of the ruin in New England. Thanks.

You're very welcome!

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I have long been of the mind that man was far more mobile and resourceful than the scientific community and establishment historians are wont to give credit for.

Exactly! Doreen Valiente disusses this in one of her books, and she is quite right!

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Finally, on the subject of contemporaneous existence of humans with dinosaurs, is anyone here familiar with the site in Glen Rose Texas, in which human and sauropod footprints are found side by side in the same rock strata?

How do they know it's a human, and not merely another primate? And, frankly, what I've always wanted to knoiw is why (as far as I am currently aware) there are no cave paintings depicting dinoaurs???

Take Care,
Wade MacMorrighan

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards Wade!

as far as I can tell, some of it may be quite well researched, as it seems to be validated through the excellent book "The Tomb of God".

I haven't heard of this book before.

Actually, I've decided to double-major in both Religious Studies (in a dept. which would be appropriate for a Wiccan] and Anthropology (which I believe both compliment each other) and minoring in Psychology. Whew...wish me luck, because college is dreadfully expensive!

This sounds to be an admirable pursuit! I wish you the best in your endeavor! I am giving thoughtful consideration to possibly pursuing some form of religious studies myself, preferably in an historical and/or psychological vein, if I can find a local university that will accept my credits and allow me to continue at a Master's level.

Yes, it is true (well, surely mythically, with regard to local legend). He buried the Holy Grail in Avalon and struck his staff into the ground near the Chalice Well complex (Weary Hill propper, which is how it got its name, from those coming with Joseph on the ship), which took root and blossomed forth as a Hawthorn Tree.

I did neglect this component to the story, my humble apologies.

An aside perhaps, but somewhat on the subject, are you at all familiar with tales of Giants in the Cornwall region? I understand there is a wall built, attributed to a (benign?) giant. I also hear that the original Lord Cornwall enjoyed hunting giants. Are there stories that support this?

The Lia Fail, or Stone of Destiny was one of the 4 holy treasures which were brought with the Tuatha De Dannan to Ireland, from their mythic cities. It is said to either sing or scream when the true king sits upon it. Some speciulate that the Tuatha De Dannan brought it with Them from northern Germany.

I was not aware of other treasures besides, other than the staff of Joseph and the Grail cup (which came with Joseph, not Jeremiah). The other three then would be? I have heard of the Tuatha de Dannan, but in fairness I have forgotten how the name figured into the context. My understanding of the travels of Jeremiah could well have taken his entourage through Germany, certainly through France, before sailing to Ireland. I understood an oceanic route, but a land route may well have been the road traveled. I was not aware of the stone singing, but in light of other British Myths concerning objects indicating the true King (Excalibur in the stone comes to mind), it does not surprise me.

The British Isl;es most likely get their name from 2 sources, one is from the Brythonic speaking people, or the P-Celts, which include speakers of the following languages: Welsh, Breton & Cornish. However, the most likely instance, in that countries in the British Isles were frequently named after Goddesses, it surely gets its name from Brigantia ["High One"].

I was not aware of these competing claims of origination, but as linguistic matters can get easily tangled that far back in history, it comes as no surprise to me. I also have to wonder, and I emphasize this is strictly conjecture, that some of the wandering tribes of Israel settled Europe, becoming what are commonly called "the Barbaric tribes" that gave Rome such fits. I would assume this to include those you named, which potentially links Celtic tradition with that of the Semites. Echoes of this link are in claims I have heard (I wish I could recall where) that the British Monarchy has familial ties to King David, supposedly through the half tribes of Ephraim and Mannassas. Jeremiah brought the princesses from the tribe of Judah, which would tie the Irish Kings of Tara to that tribe. Again, conjecture, I cannot support it at the moment, and information is exceptionally sparse, but very intriguing.

It is easy to dismiss such out of hand. But one must consider that the "Jews" of today are not the "Jews" and/or "Israelites" of long ago. The 10 Israelite tribes were ousted for taking on "foreign" gods (seceded, according to the Bible), which can be drawn to equate with Celtic mythology and symbolism. The 10 tribes of Israel were conquered and disbursed by Assyria. The tribe of Judah (with Levi and the remnant of Benjamin) were conquered, some time later, by Babylon.

I can find no evidence that she so-translated the stone as such. *shrugs*

Try this link;
http://economics.sbs.ohio-state.edu/.../loslunas.html

How interesting. What books has he written?

I don't believe Dr. Murray has written any books as such. Bear in mind, he is a Bible Scholar. And I want very much to be careful here, because I am familiar with the common reaction. He is, for lack of a better term, a televangelist. I know that term evokes immediate dismissal by most, including myself. I can get along just fine without the Pat Robertsons and Billy Grahams of the world. What is different with Dr. Murray's approach is that he reads the text from the King James (as he says, chapter by chapter, verse by verse), and then offers insight from his studies in Linguistics, drawing from the ancient Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. He was a student of Ginsburg, a Christian scholar who was allowed to learn the "secrets" of the Massorah (the "fence") used for centuries by the Jews to preserve the structure of the Old Testament during handcopying. Because Dr. Murray is ethnically Irish, he has an interest in Irish history and Ogham (he can actually read Ogham). By far the bulk of Dr. Murray's efforts are in sharing the Bible as a scholar with scholarly students. On rare occasions he shares some of his discoveries pertaining to Ogham (most sites that I am familiar with are in areas commonly used by Native American peoples in the past. The Bat Creek Stone is but one example.)

If I remember correctly, they also found reprisentations of the Horned God, too. But, I'd have to check, again. Although, I am not one to really rely on the Web, when scholarship really comes into play (I like to cite my sources). Does anyone know of any well researched (unbiased) books about Serpent Mound?

If I am not mistaken, I believe there is a link from Ms. Farley's site to a site dealing with the Serpent Mounds. I know there are books that address the matter, but I would not know any names offhand. I chose the site I did concerning the Decalogue Stone because it is associated with a university. I appreciate your concerns about using the web to gather information, and I am automatically critical in considering information, from the web especially. But I generally hold .edu sites in a little better regard. Ms. Farley's site has extended references.

Doreen Valiente disusses this in one of her books,

I am not familiar with Ms. Valiente. I did consider the adventures of Thor Heyerdahl, (even on his own admission, his work did not prove ancient societies did navigate the oceans, only that it was possible). I also consider the ongoing work of the Polynesian Voyaging Society, who have regularly been sailing hand built open canoes throughout the Pacific Islands, from Hawaii to Easter Island to Tahiti and Pitcairn and beyond, and back, with no modern navigation equipment, since the late 1970's!

How do they know it's a human, and not merely another primate? And, frankly, what I've always wanted to knoiw is why (as far as I am currently aware) there are no cave paintings depicting dinoaurs???

Thank you for not dismissing the concept out of hand. Other Simians have prehensile big toes. Their toes are like our thumbs, whereas they have no prehensile thumbs. The tracks I looked on had no prehensile big toes. Even if they were not "modern" man, they were definitely from somebody very close on the family tree. Those I saw looked like somebody stepped in deep mud, and withdrew their feet, while walking. At one point, the stride increased, which implied to me that the person picked up the pace and began to run. Shortly after the tracks ran into the river bank and were lost to view. As for cave paintings, I cannot say. Perhaps dinos were not living in Europe in the regions where cave paintings are commonly found. But they seem by some to have been frequent in South America, and deep Africa, and in these regions to have been contemporaneous with man. Did the men of these regions have access to, and social need, to live in caves? These areas tend to be jungle, and tropical.

I suppose I must stress the bulk of what I am familiar with are sauropods, "veggiesaurs". A common misgiven mental image is of a T-Rex chasing down a screaming human. This does not seem to be the case, and least not commonly. There are carnivore tracks at Glen Rose, but they are smaller in size and number than one might think. The South American pottery did not display carnivores, as I recall.

It is right that I give credit to the source of this information. When I first heard of the Glen Rose find, I made it a point that I was going to find it and see for myself. It took three trips across the US, and finally access to the internet to locate the place. I went there in '99. I have oodles of pictures I took. And I went to the Creation Evidence Museum I mentioned. They do have a website, by the way. But my monetary resources were limited, so I had to really focus on what it was I wanted to come away with. I picked a basic book eliciting the discoveries by the Museum, and I chose a video tape, "Coexistence of Man and Dinosaurs, Depicted in Nazca Burial Stones, Ceramics, Pottery, Textiles, ca. 500 AD", speaker Don R. Patterson, Ph.D. It has been a while since I have watched, so I am certain I have forgotten elements covered. But I have not found anything to back it up (in fairness, I haven't taken the time to look on the web concerning this). One video tape does not a mystery solve, I am prepared to accept, but it does raise some interesting points of discussion.

Thank you very much for engaging me in this discussion. It is a source of fascination to me, dragging anomalous archeological finds into the mainstream view. As long as such things remain outside of authoritative scholarship, we grunt scholars may never really know actual historical truth.

[juantoo3]

Regards again Wade!

If I remember correctly, they also found reprisentations of the Horned God, too. But, I'd have to check, again. Although, I am not one to really rely on the Web, when scholarship really comes into play (I like to cite my sources). Does anyone know of any well researched (unbiased) books about Serpent Mound?

Just happened to be looking into some of this stuff, to refresh my memory. This is another page from the same site listing the Los Lunas Decalogue Stone researched by Ms. Farley. This page deals with the Serpent Mounds:

http://economics.sbs.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/efw.html

I also have to stand corrected. What I called the Kensington Runestones are altogether different from the stones I had in mind. There are also pages available that address both the Kensington Runestones and the Newark Decalogue Stone and Keystone. I also found references and links to the New England earthworks, looks pretty neat. On the NEARA (?) page I found reference to the "1421, Chinese discovery" matter, in which the concerns presented earlier here were covered.

Hope this helps, at least in a cursory way.

[louis]

[quote=I, Brian]"Bloodline of the Grail" - now there's a subject to get my wick burning! And rather than distract to it on it in another thread, I thought I'd bring it up here.

From Louis...
I think I've read that book or one with a similar title.
Built on the notion that the wedding mentioned in the
story of Jesus was his OWN wedding. And that he didn't
"turn water into wine" - he had merely hidden some
extra wine in water jugs and brought it out when needed.
And that his bride was Mary Magdalene. ( Her status was
later changed to "prostitute" by zealous believers when
they decided to think of Jesus as "more than human" -
they thought a wife would undermine the "deity" angle.
I think there's a new book based on that same notion .
The book I read went on to suggest that historic "holy grail" - the vessel bearing the "holy blood" - was actualy
the CHILD of Jesus and Mary !
And that there is a goup called the "Knight Templars"
who claim descendence from that child.
Fascinating stuff, but I have NO idea if there's the
slightest germ of fact in any of it.

[louis]

[quote=I, Brian]"Bloodline of the Grail" - now there's a subject to get my wick burning! And rather than distract to it on it in another thread, I thought I'd bring it up here.

From Louis...
My apologies for a mistake - the book I read was
entitled "Holy Blood - Holy Grail". I've seen the
title mentioned in another part of this forum.