Blinded by Belief - A Great Paradox

[streetbob2006]

Originally Posted by JosephM

On what you have written I think we both agree streetbob.

What you dismiss though is another alternative and that is that we can go beyond intellect and enter the realm of the kingdom, which is here now as it was at hand in Jesus's time, and 'know'.

Love in Christ,
JM

The only thing I know about the Kingdom is it is entered through repentence and faith in Jesus Christ alone and that dom which CHrist is King has not and will not fully manifested itself until his return.

[streetbob2006]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Gassho Wil,

My experiences all happened outside of a book. At one time I allowed others to re-contextualize my experience to the book. (The Bible OT and NT)
After many years of study and being ordained I taught out of the Book. Though I did it in innocence, I did it in ignorance. I have since allowed my experiences to speak for themselves and no longer recognize the book as authority. In my view, it is full of myth, allegory, and contains error. The OT has been revealed to me as describing God from the standpoint of the ego of man. I have no belief in the Bible. In fact I have only understandings of truth that change as my experiences deepen. Not that truth changes, because it does not. But understandings will always be to some degree fallacious. How do I know? Because I can as yet not put to clear words that which I 'know' and is self evident.

Experiences are fallible and if false (which obviously they can be) will also blind someone to real truth. Just as you say a belief in a book blinds, so does experience. One can disregard objective truth because it is in opposition to a subjective experience.


All things are a beautiful thing. One will find comfort in relative truth but if one desires to go on, he must shed that belief that he might receive something greater. A book can only point, as you well know. Finding comfort in pages is illusory in nature. It is not found in the letters of words just as happiness is not found in external triggers. For those who are content with the Book, (whatever Book) that is fine. In time they will grow tired and weary and reach the end of its limits and then will they reach beyond to find what was always there before their eyes. Nothing is lost either way.

With Metta,
Love in Christ,
JM

A book can do more then point...it can reveal objective truth. On top of that if a book reveals something greater then all there is no need to shed it, but to indulge. The bible is more then finding comfort it is about finding Christ himself. Its not about the pages or words, it is about the truth in those words. The writings of the Bible are forever deep with truth. I am not a Christian for happiness,finding myself, purpose, or anything else that fills me up. It about my heart and conscience crying out for a messiah to save me from my sins and granting me eternal life. I know I have done wrong and know that a Good GOd cannot let my crimes go unpunished, but through his SOn I can gain forgiveness. I am not so much on a journey as I am in the santification process. It is all about the glory of God not just trying to make myself happy,etc

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by streetbob2006

The only thing I know about the Kingdom is it is entered through repentence and faith in Jesus Christ alone and that dom which CHrist is King has not and will not fully manifested itself until his return.

You are free to believe what you say streetbob. That is your choice. Of course I do not share that belief from my own experience.

Best Wishes for you
Love in Christ,
JM

[streetbob2006]

Originally Posted by JosephM

You are free to believe what you say streetbob. That is your choice. Of course I do not share that belief from my own experience.

Best Wishes for you
Love in Christ,
JM

Hey Joesph, we will agree to disagree. It has been nice chatting. DJ

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by streetbob2006

A book can do more then point...it can reveal objective truth. On top of that if a book reveals something greater then all there is no need to shed it, but to indulge. The bible is more then finding comfort it is about finding Christ himself. Its not about the pages or words, it is about the truth in those words. The writings of the Bible are forever deep with truth. I am not a Christian for happiness,finding myself, purpose, or anything else that fills me up. It about my heart and conscience crying out for a messiah to save me from my sins and granting me eternal life. I know I have done wrong and know that a Good GOd cannot let my crimes go unpunished, but through his SOn I can gain forgiveness. I am not so much on a journey as I am in the santification process. It is all about the glory of God not just trying to make myself happy,etc

Streetbob,

Okay. If you choose to believe that a book can reveal objective truth about God I will not oppose you. Personally I find God more a subjective experience and there to be no such thing as objective truth but that is my experience and you are entitled to your beliefs.

I'm sorry but I do not understand it when you say "Its not about the pages or words, it is about the truth in those words." Perhaps then you are advocating one look for truth in words rather than in an eternal living spirit. Because I was under the impression that words could ONLY point to something because they are dead letters on paper.

You say "I am not a Christian for happiness,finding myself, purpose, or anything else that fills me up." Then you say "I know I have done wrong and know that a Good GOd cannot let my crimes go unpunished," It seems to me you fear God's punishment and feel that would not make you very happy and so out of fear of punishment you seek forgiveness and the glory of God so you can be happy. That seems like purpose to me. Perhaps I am mistaking your words but that is what it seems like you are saying to me. Nevertheless, I do not seek to change you from what you believe. I merely present a different picture for consideration. Your beliefs are a choice you make and I wish you the best life has to offer.

Love in Christ,
JM

[streetbob2006]

Experiences are fallible and if false (which obviously they can be) will also blind someone to real truth. Just as you say a belief in a book blinds, so does experience. One can disregard objective truth because it is in opposition to a subjective experience.

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by streetbob2006

Experiences are fallible and if false (which obviously they can be) will also blind someone to real truth. Just as you say a belief in a book blinds, so does experience. One can disregard objective truth because it is in opposition to a subjective experience.

Streetbob,
As long as you are in this body all you can experience is subjective truth. You look for the impossible with your senses that can only be subjective. Perhaps you need to define the words objective truth for me.

Love in Christ,
JM

[streetbob2006]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Streetbob,

Okay. If you choose to believe that a book can reveal objective truth about God I will not oppose you. Personally I find God more a subjective experience and there to be no such thing as objective truth but that is my experience and you are entitled to your beliefs.

I'm sorry but I do not understand it when you say "Its not about the pages or words, it is about the truth in those words." Perhaps then you are advocating one look for truth in words rather than in an eternal living spirit. Because I was under the impression that words could ONLY point to something because they are dead letters on paper.

You say "I am not a Christian for happiness,finding myself, purpose, or anything else that fills me up." Then you say "I know I have done wrong and know that a Good GOd cannot let my crimes go unpunished," It seems to me you fear God's punishment and feel that would not make you very happy and so out of fear of punishment you seek forgiveness and the glory of God so you can be happy. That seems like purpose to me. Perhaps I am mistaking your words but that is what it seems like you are saying to me. Nevertheless, I do not seek to change you from what you believe. I merely present a different picture for consideration. Your beliefs are a choice you make and I wish you the best life has to offer.

Love in Christ,
JM

Hey Joesph, I seek the glory of God not because I am afraid, but rather because I see the Love of CHrist on the cross and the reponse is glory to God. I can somewhat comprehend the Holiness and justice of God (just as all of us scream for justice when someone murders someone) but when God himself takes the punishment for my sin? Whoa!

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by streetbob2006

Hey Joesph, I seek the glory of God not because I am afraid, but rather because I see the Love of CHrist on the cross and the reponse is glory to God. I can somewhat comprehend the Holiness and justice of God (just as all of us scream for justice when someone murders someone) but when God himself takes the punishment for my sin? Whoa!

Okay. Thanks for clarifying that. It didn't sound like you were saying that before.

Love in Christ,
JM

PS waiting on your definition of objective truth.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Where does it say that?

And what about the women?

BTW, I think in the old days (ie. ancient times) you would have been a middle-aged man by the time you were 30. People died early.

I think I made a mistake. It appears to be 20 years old.


"We are always to be committed to honoring our parents, but there comes a time when we are personally accountable before God. The Bible seems to indicate that a person was considered fully independent around the age of 20. For example, God required men 20 years old and upward to fight in the Israelite army (Numbers 1), and He expected them to pay the temple tax at the age of 20 (Exodus 38:21-26).
When Israel was ready to enter the promised land, God considered each person above 20 years accountable for his own decision to cross the Jordan or remain behind. Were this not the case, those over 20 that responded to their parents' wishes to stay would have been spared God's judgment. They were not. God held them accountable, and all those of majority age (20 years) died and did not see the land of Canaan (Numbers 32:11).
The New Testament also addresses the issue of the age of adulthood or the time of breaking with parental authority, though a specific age is not given. As in Genesis 2:24, Jesus (Matthew 19:5, Mark 10:7) clearly states that a married couple should depart from their family homes (which were the places of government and parental authority) and begin their own home. Jewish men usually married by their 19th year and were held responsible before the Lord."

[streetbob2006]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Okay. Thanks for clarifying that. It didn't sound like you were saying that before.

Love in Christ,
JM

PS waiting on your definition of objective truth.

Hey Joesph, my point was that one can take the opposite opinion of you and say that one might be blinded be real actually truth in the bible (if it is the word of God which it possibly could be) because of fallible subjective experiences they might see as contradictory even though the could be false.

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by streetbob2006

Hey Joesph, my point was that one can take the opposite opinion of you and say that one might be blinded be real actually truth in the bible (if it is the word of God which it possibly could be) because of fallible subjective experiences they might see as contradictory even though the could be false.

OK Dj, Good discussing with you. Only God can show us truth anyway so no big deal if we don't see things the same.

Love in Christ,
JM

[streetbob2006]

and same to you. I am sure we will meet on again on another topic. DJ

[cyberpi]

Which book, belief, and paradox is this thread referring to? "Origin of Species"? "The Ego and the Id"? "The interpretation of dreams"? "The psychology of the unconscious"?

A book is clearly visible and a person is only blind to it if something prevents them from looking at it.

But it is true when I read a book that a lot of understanding it does not come from the book. So if a person faults a person's blindness due to a belief in any set of words or knowledge that came from another soul or from God (swt), then I question what really is the cause of anyone's alledged blindness.

JosephM, do you think a person is blinded by believing in an unseen God (swt)? Is a person blinded by believing words from an unseen soul? Is a person blinded by believing that they themselves are an unseen and non-physical soul?

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Which book, belief, and paradox is this thread referring to? "Origin of Species"? "The Ego and the Id"? "The interpretation of dreams"? "The psychology of the unconscious"?

Most specifically the Bible but it can be applicable to others.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

A book is clearly visible and a person is only blind to it if something prevents them from looking at it.

Yes, that is so if you are speaking literally concerning seeing with the eyes.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

But it is true when I read a book that a lot of understanding it does not come from the book. So if a person faults a person's blindness due to a belief in any set of words or knowledge that came from another soul or from God (swt), then I question what really is the cause of anyone's alledged blindness.

JosephM, do you think a person is blinded by believing in an unseen God (swt)? Is a person blinded by believing words from an unseen soul? Is a person blinded by believing that they themselves are an unseen and non-physical soul?

I think once a person locks himself by belief into any book by believing it is 100% without error without checking out ALL that is in the book himself for accuracy, then that one has in his mind locked out the possibility of anything to the contrary. That is what I am saying by blinded by belief.

The same can be said of any fixed belief that one holds on to and refuses to consider other options without having at least a personal subjective experience or evidence to substantiate that belief. And even then, it is wise to remain open rather than fixed in understanding that one may gain a clearer understanding should the data present itself.

Love in Christ,
JM