Bible inspired by God or just written by man?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Kelcie

Allowing this river to take its natural course without adding our own substances to it perhaps then we will see the true nature of GOD. Perhaps too this is why each persons experience with GOD differs greatly from the next persons.



In this light then, can we be absolutely sure that the God inspired bible was untainted by man. Can we be absolutely sure that Genocide was mans doing and not Gods doing.

Kelcie

Hi Kelcie, just wanted to say that I've appreciated your contribution to this thread, and I agree completely with your summation in the last paragraph above. I also see this river of God flowing in and through us, although I would assign it a more active, positive role than you seem to above. Nevertheless, it is obscured by the flotsum of our ego selves and attachments.

Interesting that the Gospel reading at church today tied back into this conversation for me. The reading was

16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "

21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."
23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.
26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

In the first part of the reading ritual cleanliness was being overdone by the Pharasees, and Jesus rebukes them saying that it's not the ritual, it is what comes out of your heart that makes you unclean. In appropriate rituals of cleanliness the outer sacrament reflects the inner spirituality, but when it is twisted by humans so that the outer is the means and the ends, it is no longer holy. So, to me it is not a change but a correction to a practice gone astray.

The next part of the reading is about the Caananite woman, whom Jesus at first not only coldly rejects, but calls a dog (unclean animal). He's only concerned with the lost sheep of Israel. But, the woman insists and because of her great faith, what happens? Jesus appears to change His mind; the entire table is turned, the woman is praised and her daughter is healed. I see multiple layers of meaning in this, but for this discussion, we see first a cold, unyielding, merciless Jesus (God!). Then, everything changes in an instant because of what...faith. The unclean Canannite woman/dog/gentile/(us) is made clean (right with God) by faith. We know it's a parable about cleanliness, and shifting understanding of cleanliness, by the first part of the reading.

I think this represents the reconciliation of all humanity with God. It appears that God has changed His mind or character, but what really has happened through the life and resurrection of Jesus is that the world has been changed. The veil is torn, the paradigm shifts. Our view shifts. We move so God appears different.

I do not mean that during the time of the OT God was merciless and commanded genocide, but the contrary. I agree with what Path of One has pointed out about the realities of social life throughout history. Human life was different; people knew God and understood Him in the context of their lives. I believe that Jesus changed the context.

peace,
lunamoth

[Kelcie]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Kelcie, just wanted to say that I've appreciated your contribution to this thread, and I agree completely with your summation in the last paragraph above. I also see this river of God flowing in and through us, although I would assign it a more active, positive role than you seem to above. Nevertheless, it is obscured by the flotsum of our ego selves and attachments.

Thank you for your appreciation lunamoth.

I agree that Gods role is a lot more active then I have described.
I would just like to add that your insights into the reading today shows a greater understanding in to those verses.

Thanks for your insightful post
Kelcie

[path_of_one]

Great post, lunamoth. I'm completely with you on the concept of people's perspective changing. My general belief is that God is unchanging, but people's perception of God changes. Jesus was a major shift in many people's perception of God and also, I think, humanity.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Kelcie, just wanted to say that I've appreciated your contribution to this thread, and I agree completely with your summation in the last paragraph above. I also see this river of God flowing in and through us, although I would assign it a more active, positive role than you seem to above. Nevertheless, it is obscured by the flotsum of our ego selves and attachments.

Interesting that the Gospel reading at church today tied back into this conversation for me. The reading was




In the first part of the reading ritual cleanliness was being overdone by the Pharasees, and Jesus rebukes them saying that it's not the ritual, it is what comes out of your heart that makes you unclean. In appropriate rituals of cleanliness the outer sacrament reflects the inner spirituality, but when it is twisted by humans so that the outer is the means and the ends, it is no longer holy. So, to me it is not a change but a correction to a practice gone astray.

The next part of the reading is about the Caananite woman, whom Jesus at first not only coldly rejects, but calls a dog (unclean animal). He's only concerned with the lost sheep of Israel. But, the woman insists and because of her great faith, what happens? Jesus appears to change His mind; the entire table is turned, the woman is praised and her daughter is healed. I see multiple layers of meaning in this, but for this discussion, we see first a cold, unyielding, merciless Jesus (God!). Then, everything changes in an instant because of what...faith. The unclean Canannite woman/dog/gentile/(us) is made clean (right with God) by faith. We know it's a parable about cleanliness, and shifting understanding of cleanliness, by the first part of the reading.

I think this represents the reconciliation of all humanity with God. It appears that God has changed His mind or character, but what really has happened through the life and resurrection of Jesus is that the world has been changed. The veil is torn, the paradigm shifts. Our view shifts. We move so God appears different.

I do not mean that during the time of the OT God was merciless and commanded genocide, but the contrary. I agree with what Path of One has pointed out about the realities of social life throughout history. Human life was different; people knew God and understood Him in the context of their lives. I believe that Jesus changed the context.

peace,
lunamoth

Hi, I'd like to point out something that might alter the perspective of Jesus' addressing the woman. Unlike the mainstream Jews' thinking of the day, Jesus refers to "little dogs". He was using it as a term of endearment, instead of a derogatory metaphor of just "Dogs". He already knew her heart, but needed her to "witness" to those viewing this "spectacle" in order to make His message clear (that He already intended to include gentiles into His fold).

The woman, on the other hand accepted her "place", and took no offense, becuase she was more concerned for her child's well being than her own pride (she was assuming the burden of her daughter's ill upon herself). She was as wise as she was humble, yet absolutely determined to keep herself and her own before God...even if it meant being on her knees.

Just a thought

v/r

Q

[ghufranakahmad]

Please observe certain points in the following posts on the subject from Jeff:-08-01-2005, 03:44 AM, Saltmeister 08-07-2005, 07:08 AM, Awaiting_the_fifth08-07-2005, 10:17 AM,Jeff 08-07-2005, 02:45 PM, Awaiting_the_fifth08-09-2005, 10:52 AM
My contention is that
Except for four books of Moses (i.e. Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy) other books; when we closely look into their text, what reflects from its internal evidences is that mostly these books seem to be written by men rather than revealed on a person by God.
One may say in a religious fervor or out of simple belief that the books were inspired but the text does not support this. If at all the level of inspiration of all these books is definitely not of an equal degree and would be ascertained from the claim of man writing a particular book and taking into account the internal evidences of the book, which surface only when closely observed.
The books said to be written with divine inspiration cannot hold ground if the words of God so revealed have not been duly preserved and these have not been from an external source and have generated in the minds of the men who have written these books.
This analysis of text from internal evidences has to be done scientifically irrespective of the sentiments of the over-zealous followers of such books who may out of their enthusiasm consider having miraculous contents.
It is another thing that the books might be of a very important source of history of that time in its own merit, but we have to find truth from these sources of history and ascertain facts from these accounts of history ourselves by categorizing the texts for our guidance and understanding and not as per belief and classification of the traditional religious clerics.
I suggest we could start as follows:-
God says O’ Moses “So and so”. A direct address made by God to the prophet/person with whom the conversation has been made by Him, and the words are preserved in the original language revealed. If the words are not in the original language then it would be of lesser category on its merit.

• A prophet like Moses says that God has said to me “So and so”, and the words are preserved in the original language of the prophet. If the words are not in the original language then it would be of lesser category on its merit.
• A person narrated that God said to Moses “So and so” ”, and the words are preserved in the original language of the prophet. If the words are not in the original language then it would be of lesser category on its merit. This should be regarded as a tradition and not as revelation or inspiration

God’s words revealed to any righteous person on any land at any point of time are common treasure of the human beings, a precious heritage of all. We all have to sift jewels of God’s revelation from particulars of sand got mixed in the intervening period by human error. We have to believe in them. It is a bounty from God. We have to put on intelligent filters.
If humans can renovate old archeological dilapidated buildings and the renovation is made with such dexterity that one believes as if the original monuments have risen and restored before our eyes.
Why this can not be done with revelations made to man by God? It is not impossible. The word of God cannot be lost.
I have observations of the members before us..
Some of the members observe that the books of bible are unerring words of God or are written by men with inspiration from God. I believe and agree that if the books happen to be word of God then these must be unerring and having no contradictions as the source is the same (i.e. one God).
I have read the Bible (OT & NT) catholic as well as protestant versions.
I agree with those who observe that most of the books are just accounts of history and written by man and one has to search for and make an effort to find word of God or inspired in the books.
We must be very clear and must separate distinctively what has been spoken by God and what has not been spoken by God, what has been inspired by God from what has not been inspired by God. If something has been written by man, of whatever stature, we cannot mix it with that what has been revealed from God. We must not be in doubt about it, if we do that we will remain confused ourselves and not get guidance. It will not lead us anywhere rather we are prone to invite wrath of God by doing so.
All the same, paying due regard to the books considered sacred, we have to do an exercise, unbiased one. This would please God as we are doing this in search of Him. This search cannot displease Him.
Moreover, we are not rejecting any of the books. We will make full use if any of the books it deserves.
We are only categorizing the books with wisdom bestowed by Him on us.

[enton]

Originally Posted by Curios Mike

I've been hearing some folks make attacks on the Bible. That it was written by man and is not inspired, But I was woundering what Book or laws or what do you think is inspired by God? And why you think the Bible is not inspired By God?

The Bible (66 books) are inspired by God, and were written by men. Okay?

[Cobber]

Hi all,

From my own beliefs I look at the bible as a collection of "faith statements". This collection was decided by man through the process of canonization. For those that dont know the definition of a canon is:

Canon (a defined group of scriptures in a single collection became accepted by a certain religious community as The Bible-- different groups chose different canons)
And is why we have different denominations emphasizing different selection of books from the samiritans who only recognize the first five books of the bible through to the Ethiopian Orthodox church, which has 81 books.

The bible largely contains a collection of of people and their own experience of God. I dont believe that the bible is the "absolute" word of god, but it does give me a medium in which to explore God through other peoples experience's. There are some books which probably do in the 21st Century help in our relationship with god but at the time of canonization were deemed to be of gnostic origin (ie Gospel of St Thomas), lacked popularity (ie Gospel of the Hebrews) or too outrageous for inclusion (Infancy Gospel of Thomas).

There are many events within the bible I dont agree/relate to. Partly due to the writers at the time being influenced by both their own limitations of worldly knowledge and the accepted social context at the time of writing.

[Silverbackman]

Originally Posted by enton

The Bible (66 books) are inspired by God, and were written by men. Okay?

I agree. God inspired the Bible but it was written by men. There maybe a lot of errors in the Bible that was not from God, but I believe the fundemental teachings are not, such as stealing is wrong, ect. ect.

I think in general God is not the tyrant the Bible describes him as. I think God told people what to do in order to have a good life, but never punished them. Punishment was cause by themselves, by karma possbile.

So was the Bible written by God? No it probably was not but was it inspired by God? Yes it was. Otherwise it would not be followed by so many people if it did not have such as importance.

[Curios Mike]

Sorry it has taken so long to reply,

I agree on certian points in this dicussion, but none the less The inspired by God works 2 way. 1 is to the writer,and the other is also to the reader.

"2 Cor 3:5-6
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
NKJV"

Do I believe God wrote the Bible by his physical hand... I dont think so, Do I think he had a hand in it yes.... Of course. It was written by man, but I believe it was inspiried by God, and I also believe the reader must also be inspired by God in reading the scriptures, or else they will be a mystery. Now as to wether the 66 books are the only ones he had a hand in....I cannot answer this.....Anyone Can read the scriptures both scientifically, or any other way, but If you do not know God or have his Spirit the Bible or any other inspired writting by God will remain a mystery as previously stated above (2 Cor 3:5-6) and now below:

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
NKJV

Col 4:2-4
3 meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains, 4 that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.
NKJV

Col 2:2-3
2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge
NKJV

1 Cor 1:26-30
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
NKJV

[MattWolf]

Originally Posted by ghufranakahmad

We must be very clear and must separate distinctively what has been spoken by God and what has not been spoken by God, what has been inspired by God from what has not been inspired by God.

Yes. I think this is a matter of great faith as opposed to a forced interpretation that every word was co-written by the Creator.

I would add that the more we look for manifestations and blessing from God in our own life, the less important it becomes to glory in the lives of deceased heroes.

[Faithfulservant]

I choose not to limit God.. If by chance there are man made mistakes in the bible then God willed it so. The fact alone that the bible is the most published book in history in all its translations tells me a great deal about Gods intent to spread the word. People can debate this forever and its still the only book of its kind in the world.

I have had personal experiences with God speaking to me through it.. Being in a place in my life where I needed direction and asking God to tell me what to do and then just flipping open my bible randomly and finding the answer jumping out at me. This happens to me ALL the time. Or reading a scripture hundreds of times and getting one meaning out of it... then reading it and finally getting it... the full mystical meat of it. I call those gems and I know that the truth is given to us by God alone and without God one cannot see truth.

There is a story of a journalist that was captured in the middle east.. He was a staunch athiest.. imprisoned for 5 years and all his jailors gave him was a bible.. he came out of that a firm believer and tells his story of having read the bible through many times. That tells me that its true that man cannot live by bread alone. The Word of God sustained him. Thats a powerful testimony in itself.

This is a pointless discussion to me since the people that argue that the bible is not infalliable have not experienced the truth in its entirety have not been convicted of it and nothing that I or any bible believer can say would change their mind.. only God can do that.

[MattWolf]

Why does it have to be a matter of infallibility at all? Why can't it just be the sincere writings of people as they saw it happen?

Why can't the power of God working through sincere people doing their best be testimony enough? I find beauty and truth in all the scriptures as well. But to say I haven't "experienced it in its entirety" because I think the letter to the Romans was a letter to the Romans is unsupportable.

In fact, there is serious value in connecting with the Bible's authors as men. And there is value in connecting with the historical context of their words rather than creating havoc by misapplying words to current contexts. These insights within the book are not seen if one insists on imagining men as mere vehicles for communication and not as struggling fallible servants.

Here's an example: Moses. Moses didn't have to tell anyone why he wasn't allowed into the promised land. He didn't have to tell anyone about his lapses in judgment, etc. We can either say he provided this information as a Christ-like example of humble service to God, or we can say it was inevitable because God would make him cough it up so it could be canonized one day.

I prefer to think of Biblical men and their sacrifices as real examples of fallible, righteous people struggling against themselves to serve God as opposed to thinking of them all as puppets controlled to get the messages out in a particular way. The beauty of their collective lives is stunning and inspiring without having to think God pushed some buttons to elicit specific experiences. There are many such cases like this, where the author reveals his humble repentant spirit in his recording (or admission) of the event. That seems somehow diminished if we insist God forced the message out of them. Indeed, it seems somehow misleading.

I guess I don't understand the basis for the position you're taking. Can you explain this?

[Quahom1]

Why not indeed?

[Faithfulservant]

I see the stories of these men as Gods story and His story to tell.... The bible is full of stories that show God in many different aspects. It is an autobiography. How can that be any more clear?

Rather than being called the Bible it should be called..

"My Letter to Mankind" by God.

When I am reading about Moses or Noah or Abraham.. Im not reading about those men to read what they thought about life.. Im reading it to see how God directly affected their life.. What God did and What God thinks... Its Him advertising to US.. and I bought the entire package and not just bits of it.

These are not the testimonies of mere men these are testimonies from God direct. The book begins with God.. and it ends with God.. All the bits in the middle are ALL about God..

[Cobber]

Faithfulservant,
This is where you and I may differ. I dont see the bible as "testimonies from God" but man's own experience with God.

Maybe your title "My Letter to Mankind" by God would be better phrased "My experience with God" by Man.