Bible inspired by God or just written by man?

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Many other races that did the same thing were mentioned in the Bible like the Babylonians, Assyrians, Moabites, etc. God only told the Israelites to wipe out the Canaanites because He was settling them into that land. The Israelites were God's people and they were performing a "ritual cleansing" of the land.
The killing of the Canaanites is symbolic of what God will do in that one day all evil on this planet will be wiped out. God's people will inherit the earth.

.

It is this idea that God favors certain races of people more than others that has lead to so many horribal acts in the name of religion. The holocaust, The Crusades, were both justified by religion.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord" -Adolf Hitler

God is not racist, god does not play favorites, and a just god would not have inspired some one to write a passage that encourages ethnic clensing. the passage was probably wirtten by some jewish politician, to make atrocities that they were commiting seem justifiable, just as Hitler was doing in the quote above.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Jeff

It is this idea that God favors certain races of people more than others that has lead to so many horribal acts in the name of religion. The holocaust, The Crusades, were both justified by religion.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord" -Adolf Hitler

God is not racist, god does not play favorites, and a just god would not have inspired some one to write a passage that encourages ethnic clensing. the passage was probably wirtten by some jewish politician, to make atrocities that they were commiting seem justifiable, just as Hitler was doing in the quote above.

Well, there is no other religion on earth that I know of wherein the God of the people calls them the "apple of His eye". Yet the Jewish God did just that. And the rest are "grafted branches to the tree of Life", according to the same Jewish God, but as observed by the gentile converts.

The Old Testement of the Hebrews clearly points out that the Israelites are the favorite of God. Even the Qu'ran commands the faithful to respect those of the "Book".

Oh, I suggest you consider trying to read "Mein Kampf" by Adolph Hitler, before he came to power in Germany. You might be very surprised at what he says...about lots of people. He had a final solution in mind years before he stepped to a podium, with a bent cross on his arm band (or Navajo symbol).

The Holocust and Crusades were, political in nature, and expressed religiously. Get rid of the rich, get rid of the wretched. Start anew with a "pure" people with no "bad" habits (no contesting the will of those in power). Far easier to corral "sheep" than to tame "Rams".

v/r

Q

[path_of_one]

While I have no opinion at this time whether or not God favors certain peoples, as I really can't know and it makes little difference if I did, I am certain that the loving God I worship does not support genocide.

Perhaps I'm a bit too analytical, but I have a problem thinking that the Canaanites were literally non-human giants whose children were inherently corrupt and whose animals may have been genetically modified thousands of years before such technology was available. We have absolutely no archaeological or paleological evidence of such. I am quite certain that if a race of giants existed in that area, we would have found the evidence by now. The middle east is one big archaeological dig site, after all. It isn't out of the way the way that some of the more remote islands are- like the one on which they recently found a species of dwarf humans. Giant non-human skeletons would really stick out. If there is no evidence of such people on earth, nor a non-human culture that is substantially different from other ancient cultures, nor some kind of advanced technology... I have a hard time believing that such existed. It is not like arguing the existence of nature spirits or ghosts or God Himself- those things are supernatural and thus cannot be proven in the natural world by their very definition- but I draw the line at things that are avowedly materially real, existing on this earth, and yet leave no trace of their existence, no evidence of their reality. I'm not saying it's impossible, but rather that, for me, it is more in keeping with the evidence to interpret that the Canaanites were another ancient people, completely human, who were in a cultural clash with the Jews and were occupying territory they wanted (or needed) for themselves.

I think it is dangerous to think that any human group on earth is/was really non-human and deserves extermination. What is to stop one from believing other groups are really non-human and deserve such a fate? I'm sorry if it is blunt, but belief that genocide is justifiable somehow through the dehumanization of the people exterminated is a trend that has happened over and over again in human history. None of the people exterminated were ever non-human. There has never been biological evidence of non-human people on earth that were not part of the human lineage, and all of recorded history has been exclusively the domain of one species- H. sapiens sapiens.

Finally, in regards to children, I understand that a child can be brought up to perform worship to God or other entities in certain ways and also that children can experience the supernatural. But there is a difference between performing action without the capacity to reason through the consequences and philosophical meaning of what one is doing, and performing action with that capacity. Young children are incapable of thinking rationally through consequences, and also generally they are incapable of having much of a grasp of metaphysics, much less to break free from whatever religious system in which they are indoctrinated. To argue that they deserve to be killed based on what they could not possibly help seems cruel. Even if one accepts that the Bible is correct in that these children were worshipping demons, then the children were indoctrinated into that religion without alternatives, and were thus not responsible for their actions, as they had not been given the opportunity to do otherwise nor were they capable of fully understanding the consequences of their actions. It seems a more just option would be for them to be taught about God and have the opportunity to change their behaviors. Very young children, such as toddlers and infants, would not even remember their parents' culture or religion.

And in regards to Saltmeister's question- was it really bad for these kids to be killed? Yes. I think killing children is completely abhorrent, under all circumstances. No matter how they are being brought up- as Nazis, as terrorists, as whatever- they are still children. And we must remember that the text reads that even the youngest infants were killed. Surely, no person would argue that such cruelty as slaughtering infants during war is justifed?

(Although I suppose if one wants to get around the issue, one could argue that they weren't human, and so somehow it's OK. It's just not an argument I can buy into.)

[Curios Mike]

Howdy again, these are very interesting posts, and thanx for responding. I've been looking at Canaan, aparently it started with Ham the son of Noah... And from what I've been looking at They have been evil ever sense ham saw noah naked in his tent. (If you like to read and are not offended by the Bible its found in Genesis chapter 10)

I've never been the type to Say geneside is a great thing, or any kind of Killing weather small in number or a whole group of people. But I've also never been the type to Question God..... Welllllll to a certian point. I'm no different then Abraham in that sense I guess. If you guys know the story Abraham came to Sodom and Gomorahs deffense before God destroyed it (which by the way was in the land of Canaan, but happened before the exodus). This story is found in Genesis chapter 18 starting around verse 16.

Anyways back to the killing thing If God knows the heart of man, maybe theirs something more to the canaanites then we know. Maybe the Greeks and a few others where bad, but maybe God also seen in the heart that they could change, and in the Canaanites hearts was so corrupt that it would be impossible to even change their children and animals(Meaning if It was demonic opression of possesions they would have corrupted the Children as well as the animals). Maybe we dont have a clear understanding of how evil evil really is. If God is Love then maybe evil is total opposite of love to the point where it would be hatefull to allow such corruption to continue and polute those who do know love or those that have the potential of knowing Love(which would be possible if even children are corruptible). Anyways I dont persume to know the mind of God, and according to scripture could never know.......... (Rom 11:33
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!)......

Ok You know what testament means Right??? Testament means Covenent.

Jer 31:31-34
31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
NKJV

Basically in the old Coventent to Moses and Isreal, He preaty much stated I'lll deliver you and protect you, you will be my people and I will be your God, and here is 10 commandments you should live by......... Well The Ten commandements never worked out, becuase for man (as a whole) couldnt live by them. Thus the reason for a second covanent which Was Jesus Christ. He died for you and me and all the world; so that if we Believe in Him, and Forsake evil and corruptible living; We could be made pure, and incorruptible. But as someone already mention earlier, even if God revealed himself.... Came to earth..... Walked with man.... Man still will not believe.

I guess I'm more of a spiritualist then religous, or scientific. Their are very many wholes in both. Anyone can make up a religion that sounds good, or a theory that makes sense, and call it proof. Or state that I do not see it therefore it does not exist. I once asked a police officer if he ever came up against someone that neighbors stated may be posesed. He stated yes I have. I asked him was he hard to take down he stated, no that was about the easiest arrest I've ever made. Why would the devil reveal himself to someone who who may believe but have doubts about God. But on the same note I've spoken to many ministers of different faiths, and asked if they have faced demonicaly posesed people. The stories were different, One minister was pick up and thrown by an 8 year old girl, another stated that it took him and 5 deacons to hold down a small man, I've heard on many accausions of seeing strange shadows around people that where posesed. Can this be explianed away Scientificall..... I'm sure they can be.

Anyways I'll stop rambling, but I guess my original question is answered in this:

2 Cor 3:4-6
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life

To understand anything from God we must be spiritual, or else we cannot understand; for God is a Spirit (John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.")

Is the Bible the literal word of God...scientificaly I cannot prove it... In common sense I can make theories, but that will just cuase more confusion. Was it written by man.... yes, but the question is was it inspired, or spoken to man by God.... I think this has already been answered above.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

This is my point exactly!! If these people were not aware of God, but they were aware of the Demons, then you can almost forgive them for the Demon Worship. If God had revealed himself to them, then they would have had a choice between the Demons and God. After that, if they continued to worship the Demons, that would be their own fault.

You should recall that in the story of Jericho, a woman named Rahab confessed her belief that the God of Israel was not only the Supreme God, but also the only holy and good God there was.

Not all Canaanites were ignorant. Rahab knew about God and acted on her knowledge of what was the truth and what was good. She was raised a pagan and heathen, born in a world of demon worship, and yet she took the chance to be with God's people. God didn't even have to open the heavens and show her His blinding glory.

As I said, God shouldn't need to reveal Himself explicitly. If people don't listen to God there's no point. It would be nice if we could be obedient even if we can't see Him!!!! Many good people have done that, even though they never have seen God.

Moreover, your chance to be one of God's people doesn't end in physical death. Remember that Christ preached to the world of the dead. Those who had never heard of the Christian Gospel were raised to life in heaven because they were destined to be God's people.

My argument stands firm despite the fact that I may have accidentally "sabotaged" my own response.

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Ritual Cleansing? Also known today as Ethnic Cleansing. It doesn't matter who your God is, that is wrong.

My family is all Christian and I was raised and educated a Christian, and I know that the God I worshipped, the God they worship still would not command anyone to commit genocide.

The Ten Commandments says "do not murder" but as I said killing isn't murder if it doesn't involve hatred. The Israelites didn't hate the Canaanites. Ritual cleansing does not involve hatred. It wasn't something racist.

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Originally Posted by Saltmeister
The elements of the Jewish Order are prototypes/archetypes of the elements and teachings in the Christian Gospel. How can they be "moral contradictions?" If you have all read the Bible how come you can't see that the Christian Gospel was modelled on the elements of the Jewish Order?


The old Testament is not some vague lesson in Jewish history, it is a part of the Christian Faith.

Exactly what point are you making here? It seems to me that you're just re-affirming what I said. The Jewish and Christian faiths are the same religion. We simply say "Jewish" to refer to the Mosaic Law and "Christian" for the Christian Gospel. It's part of one single story. The Jewish faith is not "part of" the Christian faith. The two "faiths" are complements of each other. It's rather like Yin and Yang. You can't have the Law without the Gospel to fulfill it. On the other hand, if there is no Law, there's no point having a Gospel.

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Originally Posted by Saltmeister
I admit I haven't read that much of the Bible either


Maybe you should.

Awaiting the Fifth, I don't mean to be personal, but what kind of remark is this? Haven't I demonstrated my understanding of the Bible? I was simply saying that I hadn't read the whole Bible from start to finish. You seem to suggest I don't know enough to not be convinced that the killing was wrong. I was brought up as a Christian and I know the stories. I have read the Pentateuch (Genesis and Books of Moses), Joshua, Judges, 1/2 Kings and 1/2 Chronicles and Daniel. I've also read the Four Gospels and much of the Epistles. My point was that I'm not a scholar.

How much have you read?

You assumed I was talking about Sodom and Gomorrah when I mentioned the Canaanites with their temple prostitutes and men have sex with animals. Sodom was in Genesis!!!! I was talking about things in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deutoronomy. You said I was making "assumptions that weren't fact." Sure, the Sodomites were never recorded to have done these things, but I wasn't talking about them.

I think you should read the Bible a bit more to be sure I know what I'm talking about!!!

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Originally Posted by Saltmeister
Another point. Killing is not necessarily murder.


Perhaps, but it is never a good thing.

Never a good thing? If your country was invaded, would you not fight back?

Yes, that's besides the point, but I think you should realise it's murder that's wrong, but not killing. What about euthanasia? Is euthanasia wrong? Is it wrong to kill terrorists or people who are a threat to the country?

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

You mean like the Pope?

The Pope is not the Head of the Church. It's Christ that's the Head. The Pope is the head of a political system that considers itself Christ's Church. The Christian Gospel is a message. It was never supposed to be about a political system. Christians are messengers of this Gospel.

[Quahom1]

You should recall that in the story of Jericho, a woman named Rahab confessed her belief that the God of Israel was not only the Supreme God, but also the only holy and good God there was.

Not all Canaanites were ignorant. Rahab knew about God and acted on her knowledge of what was the truth and what was good. She was raised a pagan and heathen, born in a world of demon worship, and yet she took the chance to be with God's people. God didn't even have to open the heavens and show her His blinding glory.

Women were never "nephilim" as far as I can find. But they were taken by Nephilim to be the wives, concubines and offspring bearers. Doesn't mean that women of Cannaan, didn't believe in God at all (probably knew beyond the shadow of a doubt, when taking into consideration the company they were forced to keep).

As I said, God shouldn't need to reveal Himself explicitly. If people don't listen to God there's no point. It would be nice if we could be obedient even if we can't see Him!!!! Many good people have done that, even though they never have seen God.

Then how would we know there is a God, unless He reveals Himself in some way/form/or fashion? I believe He must (and does) reveal Himself to us. That is what get's us going after Him...

Moreover, your chance to be one of God's people doesn't end in physical death. Remember that Christ preached to the world of the dead. Those who had never heard of the Christian Gospel were raised to life in heaven because they were destined to be God's people.

I agree on this point, with only one tiny exception. Those who have heard of the Lord but ignore the message, might have a problem in the hereafter...

The Ten Commandments says "do not murder" but as I said killing isn't murder if it doesn't involve hatred. The Israelites didn't hate the Canaanites. Ritual cleansing does not involve hatred. It wasn't something racist.

Surely you have overlooked certain things here. "Hit men" kill for no reason save their job. It is nothing personal...Does that mean they did not commit murder? Killing isn't murder if one is at war with another nation. Doesn't make it right, but it is a sanctioned action that all nations in general agree to.

Lately it isn't nations, but rather "entities" who are conducting war. This in and of itself makes them "mini nations", subject to the consequenses of "War".

Exactly what point are you making here? It seems to me that you're just re-affirming what I said. The Jewish and Christian faiths are the same religion. We simply say "Jewish" to refer to the Mosaic Law and "Christian" for the Christian Gospel. It's part of one single story. The Jewish faith is not "part of" the Christian faith. The two "faiths" are complements of each other. It's rather like Yin and Yang. You can't have the Law without the Gospel to fulfill it. On the other hand, if there is no Law, there's no point having a Gospel.

Interesting point. However I do not think the Jews would agree with you, however the the Christians might/could.

Yes, that's besides the point, but I think you should realise it's murder that's wrong, but not killing. What about euthanasia? Is euthanasia wrong? Is it wrong to kill terrorists or people who are a threat to the country?

Killing the feeble or the elderly, by deliberate attempt is WRONG. That is murder in the first degree. IF there are no feelings toward the victim, then it is doubly wrong.

The Pope is not the Head of the Church. It's Christ that's the Head. The Pope is the head of a political system that considers itself Christ's Church. The Christian Gospel is a message. It was never supposed to be about a political system. Christians are messengers of this Gospel.

Oh, as much as would love to agree with you on this point (I'm gonna kick myself for this later), the Pope IS the head of the church, here on earth. Jesus is head of the "church" as in people of His flock. The Pope is head of the religious organization and representitive of Jesus here on earth, while Jesus is not physically present. Jesus is head of the Pope as well.

just my thought.

v/r

Q

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Yes Saltmeister, I accept that your knowledge of the Bible is probably a bit better than mine, although I do think I have read considerably more than the average man on the street. Other than that I really dont know where you are coming from with all of this.

The Ten Commandments says "do not murder"

Not in any of the Bibles in my house, they all say

"Thou shalt not kill"

Is euthanasia wrong? Is it wrong to kill terrorists or people who are a threat to the country?

Well I would say that the death penalty is wrong and involuntary euthanasia is wrong. Others may disagree, but it all comes down to "thou shalt not kill." There's no small print and no extenuating circumstances.

Never a good thing? If your country was invaded, would you not fight back?

Perhaps I would be forced to kill, but that would not make it a good deed.


When I said that maybe you should read more of the bible, I thought that you were admitting to not knowing the parts which we were discussing, I meant no offense.

My comment on the Pope was intended to demonstrate that children who are raised with evil ideologies can turn out to be good, god fearing people.


I would like to know, in clear, deliberate words, do you think that Genocide can be justified on religious grounds?

[Quahom1]

Not in any of the Bibles in my house, they all say

"Thou shalt not kill"

They also have explicit instructions on how to destroy an enemy of God, which involves killing...Read Joshua, and you will find that you are in error with your statement above. You are I think trying to use the term "Kill" as for the taking of any life. That is not how God wrote the commandment. It reads "Thou shalt not commit murder". Big difference in God's eyes. NOTE: read the literal translation for this commandment...

The OT also states "an eye for an eye", a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life...that was the law of the land and people.

Well I would say that the death penalty is wrong and involuntary euthanasia is wrong. Others may disagree, but it all comes down to "thou shalt not kill." There's no small print and no extenuating circumstances.

The death penalty is right, if the party dying is truly guilty of the attrocities charged against him/her. Again, Joshua was ordered by God to "kill" for lesser crimes.

Perhaps I would be forced to kill, but that would not make it a good deed.

Depends on the eye of the beholder...to the "victim" you might have saved, it was a good deed, indeed...

My comment on the Pope was intended to demonstrate that children who are raised with evil ideologies can turn out to be good, god fearing people.

In other words, despite the "church" people can find grace?

I would like to know, in clear, deliberate words, do you think that Genocide can be justified on religious grounds?[/

No, not on any grounds.

v/r

Q

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Do you really believe that Genocide can be justified by religion?

You say it's genocide. I said it was ritual cleansing. These aren't the same thing. Ritual cleansing isn't ethnic cleansing. Was the killing wrong? Right and wrong depend on the reality you live in.

You may call ritual cleansing "superstitious nonsense," but that depends on what your reality is.

People around the whole world have different views on what is "moral" and "immoral." We've all developed different systems of thought on this topic. As far as I know, whatever they are, it always depends on what reality you live in. We've all developed some kind of "moral code" to live by.

The God of the Bible seems like a mass murderer.

Then again, what's the point of life? Existence here is temporal. We are born, and a little while later we die. You may say that we're supposed to make the most of our lives here on earth, but if God exists then the next life is just as important.

So what's my point here? I think we would have to open up the discussion a little bit. From my point of view, religion is about physical and spiritual. If you say that it's genocode, you're neglecting the spiritual dimension.

For example, there's life after death. I could argue that the Canaanites simply passed into another world. You may consider that a stupid argument, but then we still have to answer the critical question:

What is reality?

Simply saying it's genocide and that the afterlife is a bad argument doesn't work. If you believe in afterlife, you're contradicting yourself.

State your reality. Physical and spiritual.

Moral Codes
Some religions, and I don't know if it's Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism or whatever, they teach that it's "wrong" to tread on and kill any kind of life form, even the lowest life forms like insects and spiders.

Some religions are vegetarian and are against the eating of meat, especially pork.

Islam teaches that women, when not properly covered, are a source of corruption and must veil themselves. You must pray five times a day.

Judaism teaches that the Sabbath must be observed at all times, otherwise you cease to be one of God's people.

The Catholic Church says you must observe confession. If you leave the Catholic Church, even for another denomination you are no longer Christian.

Recently in Western societies we've had debates on "religious issues" like stem-cell research, abortion, homosexuality, sex before marriage, modesty and nudity, etc.

Western society teaches that human rights is the highest tenet. Children are naive and innocent and must be treated well. Slavery is evil.

Ok, what's this got to do with the God of the Bible being or not being a "murderer?"

Look at all the different views people have on what is right and wrong. I don't believe it's a matter of whose "moral code" is better or more right than the others.

Also, have you ever wondered, where is God in all this?

Even in a modern society we can't even agree with what's right and wrong because we don't even believe in the same reality.

You may say that killing the Canaanites is genocide, but that's only because you also believe it's superstitious nonsense. In other words, to you it's purely physical, carnal and political. You believe it's genocide because you don't believe in the concept of ritual cleanliness.

That's another thing -- ritual cleanliness is a prevalent theme in the Bible, Old and New Testaments.

I won't pretend to be a theologian, but I will simply state my reality. Only then can you understand my way of thinking.

Human Nature, Good and Evil and Rituals
To understand right and wrong, we have to understand human nature. What constitutes a person's character or personality? Instincts. We all have instincts. These are things we do naturally. Good instincts (virtues) are things like love, kindness, generosity and humility. Evil instincts (vices) are things like hatred, arrogance, greed, lust, selfishness, etc.

"Moral codes" judge people on their actions, but that's not the way it works. God judges people by the good and evil instincts they follow. Morality comes from our good instincts and immorality comes from our evil instincts.

Human nature >> vices and virtues >> morality and immorality

Our instincts are more important than following "moral codes."

Life is about rituals. It may be rituals that result from following a moral code, or rituals that result from following our instincts. When we follow our good and evil instincts, we perform rituals that come naturally to us. The Old Testament was about rituals from a moral code. The New Testament was about rituals that came directly from the instincts of the human nature.

Understanding right and wrong also depends on the reality of the situation. If the rituals we perform are the reality we live in, then right and wrong will depend on these rituals.

The whole point of a Law that said "eye for an eye" was to show how a moral code would fail humanity. That's why we've now got the Gospel.

Everything becomes simpler if we see life in terms of the instincts we follow.
If we define everything in terms of "human rights," we miss the point of what morality and immorality really is. It's us following our good and evil instincts.

If you never knew about this concept of ritual cleanliness it's because you haven't read the Bible enough or you haven't looked in the right places.

Ritual cleanliness is not superstitious nonsense. If you think about it, it defines a completely different reality. Every reality has it's own terminology. Concepts like genocide, human rights, democracy and freedom of conscience are concepts of humanism. Ritual cleanliness has concepts like human nature, instincts, consecration, desecration, dedication, devotion, purity, impurity, holiness, unholiness, corruption, cleanliness and uncleanliness.

Your reality is humanism. My reality is ritual cleanliness.

Life is about rituals. Some rituals are clean, some unclean. For example, when you're selfish, arrogant and hateful, you're performing unclean rituals. When you're loving and kind, you're performing holy rituals.

God is not going to force people who perform unclean rituals to do what is right because they will not. They have chosen impurity. People can, however, turn a new leaf if God gives them the opportunity to do so. If they continue to reject Him, there's no point trying again and again.

You can't say God is "unkind" if he doesn't forgive you. You can't blame God for your own iniquity. That's what we do when we say God is "unkind." Because of our evil instinct to be selfish, we blame God but it's really because we brought it on ourselves.

You want things, but you cannot have them, because you do not ask God for it. When you do ask, you're motives are wrong; you ask for things to use for your own pleasures. James 4:2-3

This isn't superstitious nonsense. Actually I think what we have in the world today -- humanism and democracy is nonsense. There's all this humanism stuff that people believe in but they never seem to be able to agree on what's right and wrong.

I am not an enemy of State. My existence here is temporal. I have chosen to go to a better place.

And that is reality from my point of view.

Was this all made up? I read the Bible and I see something that no human could have invented.

Look at the world today and the history of the ancient world.

The Law of Moses was unique in the ancient world for its Ten Commandments, and that fact that the Israelites' God got them to wander in the desert for 40 years. Yet the Israelites were more inclined to worship a golden calf. Who would have allowed Moses to order them around? Except if there was supernatural intervention.

The Christian Gospel is unique in today's world for its teaching that Christ opened for us a path toward holiness. No other religion has a story like that.

[Curios Mike]

I have a few questions for salty.

That's another thing -- ritual cleanliness is a prevalent theme in the Bible, Old and New Testaments.

Where is this commanded in the new testament?

And Say Awaiting_the_fifth is an ungodly man and did all sorts of evil things according to the bible, but Ok to the law of the land, should he be killed?

(((( Awaiting_the_fifth..... I mean no offense but being that you two are hot and heavy I figured I'd use you as the caracter of my question)))

{{{{{ I also have a request..... being that we keep stating the Bible says this or it says that; if it is possible for you would you quote what it says, or at least leave a refference to where to find it..... Also on the deffinitions, or other commentaries or other scripture from other books.....}}}}}}}

Example for definition:
definition of Kill found in Exodus 20:13
OT:7523
ratsach (raw-tsakh'); a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:

KJV - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

I have another question.... Its sounds kinda bad, but What if Isreal had kill everything in that land.........(their are a few instenses where they disobeyed and did not)

Judg 2:1-6
2:1 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: "I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, 'I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.' But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, 'I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.' " 4 So it was, when the Angel of the LORD spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept. 5 Then they called the name of that place Bochim; and they sacrificed there to the LORD. 6 And when Joshua had dismissed the people, the children of Israel went each to his own inheritance to possess the land.
NKJV




Anyways this one if mostly for you historians: What if Isreal obeyed and drove out all the inhabitants..... Would their be an Islam now?

Here is the nations/Tribes that where not driven out:

Judg 1:27-36
27 However, Manasseh did not drive out the inhabitants of Beth Shean and its villages, or Taanach and its villages, or the inhabitants of Dor and its villages, or the inhabitants of Ibleam and its villages, or the inhabitants of Megiddo and its villages; for the Canaanites were determined to dwell in that land. 28 And it came to pass, when Israel was strong, that they put the Canaanites under tribute, but did not completely drive them out.
29 Nor did Ephraim drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; so the Canaanites dwelt in Gezer among them.
30 Nor did Zebulun drive out the inhabitants of Kitron or the inhabitants of Nahalol; so the Canaanites dwelt among them, and were put under tribute.
31 Nor did Asher drive out the inhabitants of Acco or the inhabitants of Sidon, or of Ahlab, Achzib, Helbah, Aphik, or Rehob. 32 So the Asherites dwelt among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land; for they did not drive them out.
33 Nor did Naphtali drive out the inhabitants of Beth Shemesh or the inhabitants of Beth Anath; but they dwelt among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land. Nevertheless the inhabitants of Beth Shemesh and Beth Anath were put under tribute to them.
34 And the Amorites forced the children of Dan into the mountains, for they would not allow them to come down to the valley; 35 and the Amorites were determined to dwell in Mount Heres, in Aijalon, and in Shaalbim; yet when the strength of the house of Joseph became greater, they were put under tribute. 36 Now the boundary of the Amorites was from the Ascent of Akrabbim, from Sela, and upward.
NKJV

The Canaanites where mentioned several time so I Italic them. I put Megiddo in bold becuase it holds prophetic importance.... If you guys are familier with armagedin.
Anyways I figure some of you historians may know more about these cultures from a history stand point.

The other reason why I asked the prior question is becuase If I'm not mistaken the Islamic people are decendents of Ismael, Abrahams son. and As far As I know that area where he lived was part of the promise land.

Ishmaels decendents:

Gen 25:12-18
12 Now this is the genealogy of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's maidservant, bore to Abraham. 13 And these were the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; then Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, 14 Mishma, Dumah, Massa, 15 Hadar, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. 16 These were the sons of Ishmael and these were their names, by their towns and their settlements, twelve princes according to their nations. 17 These were the years of the life of Ishmael: one hundred and thirty-seven years; and he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people. 18(They dwelt from Havilah as far as Shur, which is east of Egypt as you go toward Assyria.) He died in the presence of all his brethren.
NKJV

LOL I may have just answered my own question, but anyways...

Judg 2:3
Therefore I also said, 'I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.

Biblicaly speaking this is Probably why God Ordered the Children of Isreal to Completly wipe them out... Think of How many have died in that Region ever sense? If they would have obeyed their would have been alot less killed..... but this is just another theory...... (((1 Cor 3:18-20
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their own craftiness"; ))))
NKJV

[kabbalah]

was the Bible written by man or God? Moses was a kabbalist of the highest degree having contact with God, so whether he wrote it or God wrote it is irrelevant, but it is divinely written.

Is genocide ever justified? Yes! In fact it is ALWAYS justified! There is only one force in the world, the Creator who is absolutely benevolent. Human beings have no free will until they begin to study Kabbalah, they gradually become more and more free as they equalize form with the Creator. All suffering is sent as absolute kindness, so that we will ask ourselves "why am I suffering?" There are two ways to progress towards equivalence of form with the Creator: 1.suffering 2.kabbalah. Either way the Creator will lead us to the goal we are destined for, only kabbalah is faster and less painful.

By the way, the entire Tanakh refers to spirituality, not corporeality, although since the spiritual world must be reveled at least once in our world these events did occur historically. but these stories are really referring to the inner states of souls. The Canaanites are an aspect of the evil inclination in a person that must be completly destroyed.

[Quahom1]

Human beings have no free will until they begin to study Kabbalah, they gradually become more and more free as they equalize form with the Creator.

I disagree. I think that just shot that theory down...

And genocide is never appropriate, nor is it our place to ever decide. I do believe that is a kabbalahist nomer or prerequisete, to full understanding.

Certain things are just not up to us to decide, regardless of how free we are.

Still, we do it anyway...

v/r

Q

[mee]

(Daniel 10:14) And I have come to cause you to discern what will befall your people in the final part of the days, because it is a vision yet for the days [to come]."

Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: "O my lord, what will be the final part of these things? Daniel 12;12........ Daniel was inspired by God to write the book of Daniel yet even daniel himself did not understand what he was writing down............

And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end...daniel 12;9 interesting dont you think?

[I, Brian]

Killing is fine if it doesn't involve hatred? Genocide is just ritual cleansing? God makes us suffer out of kindness?

And I guess you both wonder why atheists get the impression that God is some kind of twisted evil monster?

[Kelcie]

That was a very intense discussion of the biblical accounts of history. Very scholarly I might add.

For me the bible was God-Inspired, as are most religious texts. However, man did indeed have to write down this inspiration. The question really is how clear was this inspiration received? For each person who wrote a book pertaining to the bible, each account clearly demonstrates a distinct flavour of the writer’s own personality and beliefs. How much of it was received clearly is open for debate as has been demonstrated in this thread. How much of it has remained in its original written form is also open for debate. However our level of understanding of what is inherent will determine our level of understanding as to the depth of the writer and his/her accounts.

When the writer changes so does the flow of the texts, with subtle changes that has suited the writer of the time. In its essence however there is a lot of truth that spring from the context of what is being communicated to the reader.

God has not hidden himself from anyone, he is constantly revealing himself everyday through the word, through the everyday events of our lives, but those of us who do not have the eyes to see will not. The greatest power if you will God has bestowed upon man is the power to choose. He has provided us with everything we need to be in constant communion with him but it is man who has chosen not to.

Man has chosen to do heinous acts and acts that harm, God does not command us to do anything because of the free choice and free will inherent in us.

History (not only biblical history) shows that in the name of God many a million of people have been killed in more than horrible ways. In the name of God, racism is born. In the name of God, people kill themselves. But it was never God’s choice it has been and always will be Mans choice. Perhaps they confuse their messages, I don’t know, I only know that when you dwell in the essence of God killing is not an option even if it is ritualistic. It is natures job to cleanse the earth, it is mans job to cleanse ones self. (Not others) The bible offers many methods in how to do this and it does not include killing.

God has instilled in us, all that we need to cleanse ourselves and realize truth when it is presented; it is us and us only who choose not to see it in its essence.


Just my humble opinion
Kelcie