Bible Contradictions

[Marietta]

Hello bananabrain, Thanks for the reply.

I agree that we can learn from the contradictions in the text we have at our disposal. We can learn from the stories in a comic book as well. However people don't make the claim that a comic book is divinely inspired.

As for myself whay I have found in the Hebrew text and I have come to believe is that The Divine Absolute Source of all things which I chose to shorten to Source (Gd if you chose). is in truth all that exists. Everything else is merely the result of an action/thought that Source had. Once Source had a thought and it took form/or non form, that form/non form began thinking and these thoughts took form and so on. There fore the translations we have access to even though manipulated at the hands of mankind with the intent to deceive are in an indirect way still the result of the first action of Source. However I do believe that Source still inspires mankind and talks to those who will listen giving us deeper insights into what the under laying text truly says.

We agree that there are two torah's within Judaism one written and the other one is that which is found between the lines when viewing the Hebrew text and allowing the letters themselves to speak to you. This is where I began to find answers to my questions. After letting a single letter like beth in Genesis 1:1 speak to me I than add the second letter rehsh and they both tell of something together then I add the ahleph and together the three speak. When the group gets to the point that they no longer get along or agree, I go back to the second letter, rehsh and start all over again. Then I take each letter independently of each other and let them each talk to me as I build upon each of their statements. Then I take the groupings that man has broken down and see what they have to say. It is amazing what a wonderful physics book the Torah truly is.
The third Torah

There are almost as many different branches of Judaism as there are Christianity. Each with its differing beliefs. Hasidic, Kabalistic, Reform, Orthodox to mention only a few. And then there are as many differing openions between the people as there are among any system of belief.
Therefore you can not speak for Judaism at large you can merely give your view as to how your mind has come to understand what you have been taught.

The Oral Torah is merely a set of judicial laws put together by the heads of the community and because of the understanding that all comes from the first source they were considered God inspired. However the written text was brought into this dimension from the higher dimensions and said to be written by the finger of Source.

Within Peace, Midge

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Marietta!

Originally Posted by Marietta

I'm not sure what you are asking as to how my beliefs serve me in dealing with the rest of humanity? Please clarify this for me.

OK, it was in response to this:

It is my understanding that the bible has been manipulated and mistranslated on purpose to keep mankind under bondage so that the Fallen Angels can take control of us.

It just seems to me that someone who teaches that the Bible is deliberately manipulated to keep mankind in bondage is themselves trying to bind their flock with an undeserved fear. My opinion, having been under the influence of similar in times past.

I truly believe in the saying "live and let live." I live my life as I see fit and allow others to do the same. I don't try to impose my thoughts upon others, however when asked I do share my personal understanding on any given subject.

This seems to me fair enough.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is the rule around our house. My grand kids know it by heart and they are still relatively young. I try to apply this across the board in my life. I have also incorporated the saying "Love your neighbor as yourself" into my life as well because I believe that we are all connected on a much higher level of existence and by causing harm to another will inadvertently brings harm to myself in one way or another (because on a much higher lever my neighbor is myself).

Seems fair enough.

Just the opposite, I do not wish to control anybody however I do wish to take control of my own life and thought processes. There is no fear in true knowledge. Fear is the unknown factor and once you face it and become familiar with it you over come it.

While what you say seems to me to be true, it also seems to contradict the earlier statement, "It is my understanding that the bible has been manipulated and mistranslated *on purpose* to keep mankind under bondage so that the Fallen Angels can take control of us."

Why would a figure of speech contradict itself, when the story is supposed to be the same?
How can a contradiction which has to do with the number of something be cultural?

I wasn't trying to be all inclusive, my statement was short because of time limitations.

The specific "contradiction" I had in mind was:

The earth is not flat, as once thought. It has no corners at all, and "ends of the earth" is not typically interpreted as from outer space. (Besides, what would be the ends? Why should the magnetic poles be "ends" as opposed to the axis of rotation?)

"Ends of the earth" is a colloquialism, and it would not surprise me if it is Elizabethan in origin. The "four corners" (which have been confirmed by satellite observation as four distinctly high points on the globe) is a figure of speech, understood well in a cultural context. We speak of the "four winds," yet is this truly so? Or is there but one wind that happens willy nilly to come from whatever angle as the atmospheric need arises? Or are there countless multitudes of winds, by which the proverbial flap of a butterfly's wings might produce a storm a world away? How can we say with certainty how the majesty of G-d's creation operates? Today, in many cases we have textbook guesses on how things work on an overall basis, such as weather, geography and topology. How could people 500 years ago, or two thousand years ago, or four thousand years ago, understand these same phenomena? So they used colloquialisms and figures of speech...

Obviously, this does not answer all of your questions for all of your contradictions, but it does answer many of them. At least, it has answered the same questions for me.

[Marietta]

Hello Juantoo3,
I still don't understand your logic here. Are you saying that if I overheard someone trying to bread into your house and decided to tell you so you could be aware that, this inadvertently would mean that I am going to try to bread into your house? Please help me understand where this is coming from.
You stated:
It just seems to me that someone who teaches that the Bible is deliberately manipulated to keep mankind in bondage is themselves trying to bind their flock with an undeserved fear. My opinion, having been under the influence of similar in times past>>>>

How does making a statement that the bible has been manipulated by the fallen angels as a means of control, contradictory to my belief in Total Free Will?
You haven't taken away any of the contradictions. You have merely tried to cover them up with religious dogma.
Love and Light, Midge

[Caimanson]

Originally Posted by kenod

It really isn't that difficult.

How did President Kennedy die?

A. He was shot in Dealey Plaza, Dallas.

B. He died in Parklands Hospital from a head wound.

Kenod, I doubt wether such conflicting accounts will stand in a court of law.
How could he pay for the field with the reward, if Matthew says that he got rid of the coins in the temple out of guilt?
Now, you can come with all sorts of explanations, ie the branch where he hanged himself broke, he had savings elsewhere, etc.

The point is that this difference is not really important, the moral of Judas' death is more or less the same.
However it does guard you from the dogma that the bible is infallible at all levels.

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Caimanson

Kenod, I doubt wether such conflicting accounts will stand in a court of law.
How could he pay for the field with the reward, if Matthew says that he got rid of the coins in the temple out of guilt?
Now, you can come with all sorts of explanations, ie the branch where he hanged himself broke, he had savings elsewhere, etc.

The point is that this difference is not really important, the moral of Judas' death is more or less the same.
However it does guard you from the dogma that the bible is infallible at all levels.

Whether the Bible is the infallible Word of God or not, is a matter of faith.

Whether there are contradictions in the Bible is a matter of reasoning. I have never found any that stand up to scrutiny.

How did Judas pay for the field? It is all explained in Matthew 27.


Some also see a connection with John 12:6

He [Judas] did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. (NIV)

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Marietta!

Originally Posted by Marietta

I still don't understand your logic here. Are you saying that if I overheard someone trying to bread into your house and decided to tell you so you could be aware that, this inadvertently would mean that I am going to try to bread into your house? Please help me understand where this is coming from.

I'm not sure what making bread has to do with any of this...

You stated:
It just seems to me that someone who teaches that the Bible is deliberately manipulated to keep mankind in bondage is themselves trying to bind their flock with an undeserved fear. My opinion, having been under the influence of similar in times past>>>>

How does making a statement that the bible has been manipulated by the fallen angels as a means of control, contradictory to my belief in Total Free Will?

In short, the implication is that everyone who has any exposure whatsoever to the Bible is under Satanic influence. Of course, if this is so, what makes you think you are not under the same control? The point that you have been made aware? Ummm, I don't think so. Such teaching implies the Bible is not of G-d, but of His adversary, which is counter-intuitive on many levels. I can just as easily teach *your* dogma, that you are under Satanic influence. In the end, we would simply be name calling and pointing fingers, would we not?

You haven't taken away any of the contradictions. You have merely tried to cover them up with religious dogma.

Please keep in mind who first brought out and fired the "dogma" gun. You haven't considered the concept or effect of colloquialisms and figures of speech on the text, you have merely covered the concept up with your own dogma.

I stated, very plainly, that colloquialisms are not the be all and end all answer, but that in some instances your "contradictions" are easily answered by understanding that cultures and languages, including the Elizabethan English of the KJV, do have figures of speech that were not meant to be taken literally. There are some terms that employ poetic license. This is not Satanic, this is how civilizations of old relate to things they do not comprehend.

Dismissal with charges of "dogma" do not derail or take away from this reality. Any studied linguist knows I am speaking truly.

Best of luck in your search.

[Marietta]

Greetings Juantoo,
Sorry about that it should have read Break-in Not bread, Oh my I did it twice in one paragraph. Sorry!

You have misunderstood me totally because I didn't intend what you are saying and surely don't believe that reading something that is mistranslated puts anybody under satanic control. Where did you come up with this? Just because someone mistranslated a text and I have read it does not mean that I am under satanic control. Where do you get this stuff?

Please explain how I brought out any kind of Guns. All I have done is explain what I have come to understand. If you don't agree with what I have said and can give proof please do so however don't twist what I have written and accuse me of saying everybody that has read the bible is under satanic control.

How do you know what I have taken into consideration? As a matter of fact I have given a lot of thought to colloquialisms and figures of speech, which is a small part of what has brought me to the conclusions I have come to. You are making assumptions that are not true.
You have not read anything that I have posted that mentions Satan so why do you insist on using that term as though I have used it?
We will just have to disagree on this.
Best of luck to you as you find your way.
With Love and Light, Midge

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Marietta

Kenod, I am refering to the Aramaic text here.
Midge

Is it your understanding that all of the New Testament was written in Aramaic?

Do you have access to the original text in Aramaic?

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Marietta!

Originally Posted by Marietta

You have misunderstood me totally because I didn't intend what you are saying and surely don't believe that reading something that is mistranslated puts anybody under satanic control.

I suppose that is possible that I misunderstood, like when I did not understand that when you wrote "bread" you actually meant to write "break-in."

Where did you come up with this? Just because someone mistranslated a text and I have read it does not mean that I am under satanic control. Where do you get this stuff?

You. "the bible has been manipulated by the fallen angels as a means of control."

Please explain how I brought out any kind of Guns. All I have done is explain what I have come to understand. If you don't agree with what I have said and can give proof please do so however don't twist what I have written and accuse me of saying everybody that has read the bible is under satanic control.

Why the attitude? All I did was point out to you what you were accusing others of. "It is my understanding that the bible has been manipulated and mistranslated on purpose to keep mankind under bondage so that the Fallen Angels can take control of us."

How do you know what I have taken into consideration? As a matter of fact I have given a lot of thought to colloquialisms and figures of speech, which is a small part of what has brought me to the conclusions I have come to. You are making assumptions that are not true.

Perhaps you have looked into these things in times past, but in our particular conversation it is evident you were not considering linguistic norm.

You have not read anything that I have posted that mentions Satan so why do you insist on using that term as though I have used it?

Considering your first post, and your last one, I think equation between "fallen angels" and "Satan" is quite appropriate.

We will just have to disagree on this.

As you wish. I have yet to meet an esotericist that doesn't get upset when confronted with logic. Ask Tai.

[Marietta]

Greetings Kenod, Yes, it is my understanding that the original text of the NT were written in Aramaic.
Yes, I have a copy of the Peshitta.

You wrote:
Is it your understanding that all of the New Testament was written in Aramaic?
Do you have access to the original text in Aramaic?

Love and LIght, Midge

[Marietta]

Hello Juantoo, Nice to hear from you.

Again just because someone has the intent of taking control does not imply that anybody who reads their material is under their control. Your thoughts not mine. You are manipulating my words and thoughts in the same manner that the FA's manipulated the Bible. Nothing you have accused me of saying was in my mind or intentions. You have totally manipulated what my writings stated to fit your agenda which is to see if you can made me angry.
Considering Fallen Angels as Satan is your choice not mine.
You are wrong once again, I'm not angry in any since of the word. Making corrections to the things you have twisted in my posts does not equate to anger. I am merely presenting my views which seem to upset you which I must apologize for, I'm sorry. It appears to me that you are trying to get back at me because I stated that I have never met a Christian that didn't get angry when I presented views that didn't coincide with theirs, as is obvious here with the twisting and misquoting what I said to try to provoke me to anger.
To all reading this thread: Please for give me for for allowing myself to be drawn into this type of discussion.
Love and Light, Midge

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Marietta

It is my understanding that the bible has been manipulated and mistranslated on purpose to keep mankind under bondage so that the Fallen Angels can take control of us. It is also my understanding that we are living in the time of the Apostacy and that these are the end times. The church at this point is apostate. Jesus said that his flock is the small flock. Wide is the road that leads to distructin and many will be found upon it but narrow is the way that leads to salvation and few will be found upon it. Christianity is the largest organized religion in the world.

Well Marietta! I agree with you that Bible has been manipulated and mistranslated; and I would also add that it has been interpolated also. But before I write on the subject I want to quote in this regard from Quran , as it has described on the subject of Contradictions and Ambiguities in the Revealed Books of all religions on one hand; and Quran has authenticated and confirmed the realities in the Revealed Books of all the religions on the other. Quran has stated causes and prescribed rules as to how to remove these contradictions and find the truth amidst the same.
Quran, Chapter 3 Ale-Imran:
[3:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[3:2] Alif, Lam, Mim.
[3:3] Allah is He besides Whom there is none worthy of worship, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining.
[3:4] He has sent down to thee the Book containing the truth and fulfilling that which precedes it; and He has sent down the Torah and the Gospel before this, as a guidance to the people; and He has sent down the Discrimination.
[3:5] Surely, those who deny the Signs of Allah, shall have a severe punishment. And Allah is Mighty, Lord of retribution.
[3:6] Surely, nothing in the earth or in the heavens is hidden from Allah.
[3:7] He it is who fashions you in the wombs as He wills; there is none worthy of worship but He, the Mighty, the Wise.
[3:8] He it is who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are firm and decisive in meaning - they are the basis of the Book - and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking to cause discord and seeking wrong interpretations of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, 'We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.' - And none take heed except those gifted with understanding -
[3:9] 'Our Lord, let not our hearts become perverse after Thou hast guided us, and bestow on us mercy from Thyself; surely Thou art the Great Bestower;
[3:10] 'Our Lord, Thou wilt certainly assemble mankind together on the Day about which there is no doubt; surely, Allah never fails in His promise.' unquote
This is in short, detail on the subject mentioned in other chapters/verses will be provided if need be.
To my knowledge no other Revealed Book containing Word from the mouth of God and revealed on a prophet has given any account on the subject as to the Claim and as also to the reason. This is a fact not a thing to boast upon.
I would like to mention here that according to Ahmadia- a faith in Islam, a people could lose the guidance altogether even if their Revealed Book e.g. Quran is secure and free of human manipulation, even then the people may become devoid of guidance despite the radical clergy in abundance. The contradictions find inroad into the concepts of a religious community as soon as people rely on blind-faith, hence they become spiritually blind, rather than to believe in religion on rational thinking based on reason and arguments which increase their insight manifold and make their souls farsighted, so emphasized by Quran. This is the root cause of this disease/problem. Quran is intact as far as the text is concerned, there are no two Quran in the world having any difference in Arabic Manuscript, and even then most Muslims have lost the true guidance from God. This had been prophesized by Muhammad in a Hadith, well-known to the Muslims: “There will come a time amongst people when nothing will remain of Islam except its name only; nothing of Quran will be left except the written words; Mosques of these people would be full of the inhabitants but these will be devoid of the guidance; and their clergy would be the foulest of the creatures under the sky; conspiracies would raise from amongst them and return on to them.” unquote
Mishkat,Kitabul Ilm,Alfasal us-Salus
I just want to emphasize here for everybody that this is the status when the Text of the Revealed Book is most secure, beyond doubt. What would happen to a people when there is no secure text of the Revealed Book; that is anybody’s guess? This is a thing of grave concern for every religion.
I end here for the time being.
Thanks

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Marietta.

Originally Posted by Marietta

Again just because someone has the intent of taking control does not imply that anybody who reads their material is under their control. Your thoughts not mine. You are manipulating my words and thoughts in the same manner that the FA's manipulated the Bible.

This is your misinterpretation of what I said. Reread, please. Especially the first post.

Specifically: "It just seems to me that someone who teaches that the Bible is deliberately manipulated to keep mankind in bondage is themselves trying to bind their flock with an undeserved fear. -jt3"

Nothing you have accused me of saying was in my mind or intentions.

It doesn't have to be in your *conscious* mind.

You have totally manipulated what my writings stated

I see, direct quote verbatim in context is to you a manipulation. Very well, no one should ever quote you, under any circumstances, because they will automatically by virtue of your decree be manipulating your writings. That means you are not liable for what you write or say, and that's incorrect. No court of law will agree to these terms, unless one is adjudicated as mentally incompetent. Are you mentally incompetent? If not, then I can quote you directly verbatim in context, and respond in kind.

In other words, you are falsely accusing me.

to fit your agenda which is to see if you can made me angry.

I have no agenda. If I could be said to have an agenda, it is to expose the fallacies in your reasoning. Now I understand why.

Considering Fallen Angels as Satan is your choice not mine.

Satan is traditionally considered by many to be the chief leader of the fallen angels, particularly by those towards whom your "writings" are so venomously slanted. I am certain you are well aware of this.

You are wrong once again, I'm not angry in any since of the word.

No, I am not mistaken. Were you not so upset you would not resort so quickly and so often to fallacies and personal attack.

Making corrections to the things you have twisted in my posts does not equate to anger.

I have not twisted anything, and I haven't time to take you by the hand and show you where you are trying to misrepresent me. The only rational reason you would do so is because you have no intelligent logical response.

I am merely presenting my views which seem to upset you which I must apologize for, I'm sorry. It appears to me that you are trying to get back at me because I stated that I have never met a Christian that didn't get angry when I presented views that didn't coincide with theirs, as is obvious here with the twisting and misquoting what I said to try to provoke me to anger.

I can get angry. This isn't even close. This is more...perplexed, befuddled and bemused.

To all reading this thread: Please for give me for for allowing myself to be drawn into this type of discussion.

I forgive you. Now, I would appreciate if you would stop suggesting that Christians and Jews are under the influence of Satanic power, ooops, the influence of the fallen angels. THAT is a chain that binds *you.*

The only reasons you would go to such lengths; falsely accusing, deliberately misrepresenting, using antagonistic language, not acknowledging responsibility, and so on, is either because I struck a nerve by speaking truth, or because you are not capable of handling logical dissent. Or both. Either way, it would behoove us both well if you ceased falsely accusing the people of the book. Apparently, you don't like it *when you imagine* it is done to you. What if I had directly and openly accused you of such, as you did me and many others here?

[flowperson]

Marietta:

You are hereby forgiven. 123 has tried these tactics with many here, and we just go along to a point...then it ends. Circular logic always ends up with the dog biting its own tail...and that hurts.

flow....

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Flo!

Originally Posted by flowperson

123 has tried these tactics with many here, and we just go along to a point...then it ends. Circular logic always ends up with the dog biting its own tail...and that hurts.

With all due respect, I hardly think it is circular logic to take offense at being told I am under the influence of fallen angels. I think I handled it quite well, considering.

Further, she shouldn't dish it out if she isn't willing to eat it too.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled discussion...(about contradictions in the Bible and why they exist)