belief, superstition, reality and truth

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

OK, but in the Christian paradigm, what is the continuity? What connection? New life and fertility in spring are decidedly pagan ritualistic associations, how did these things get wrapped up in Christian mythos?

The trinity provides the continuity in the Christian paradigm.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Pathless

The continuity is that Christianity has appropriated all sorts of pagan rituals and practices over time. These things were co-opted by the Catholic Church as a way of assimilating worshippers.

Easter/Ishtar: easter ishtar - Google Search

bingo!

Now for the practical application of the abstract realization...

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

The trinity provides the continuity in the Christian paradigm.

Ah, but is your answer a possibly deliberate discontinuity? Unless the suggestion is that the trinity is at root a pagan paradigm...?

[Paladin]

So have we broached anything here that we didn't argue over in the "Function of Belief" thread? What happens when we stay in the artificial continuity that Chris so compellingly describes? Have we merely created a safe place from which we can engage our own version of reality? I mean, sure we can play more confidently if emotionally we feel our bases are covered, but are we really engaging actuality or some kind of simulacrum?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Paladin

So have we broached anything here that we didn't argue over in the "Function of Belief" thread? What happens when we stay in the artificial continuity that Chris so compellingly describes? Have we merely created a safe place from which we can engage our own version of reality? I mean, sure we can play more confidently if emotionally we feel our bases are covered, but are we really engaging actuality or some kind of simulacrum?

Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind.
One said, “The flag moves.”
The other said, “The wind moves.”
They argued back and forth but could not agree.

Hui-neng, the sixth patriarch, said: “Gentlemen! It is not
the flag that moves. It is not the wind that moves. It is
your mind that moves.”

The two monks were struck with awe.

[Paladin]

I've always loved that story

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

bingo!

Now for the practical application of the abstract realization...

Ah, but is your answer a possibly deliberate discontinuity? Unless the suggestion is that the trinity is at root a pagan paradigm...?

So, uh, can we stand the suggestion that Christianity is itself a Pagan religion?

There is certainly a slightly different trinity in Pagan traditions:

1. maiden
2. mother
3. crone

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Paladin

So have we broached anything here that we didn't argue over in the "Function of Belief" thread? What happens when we stay in the artificial continuity that Chris so compellingly describes? Have we merely created a safe place from which we can engage our own version of reality? I mean, sure we can play more confidently if emotionally we feel our bases are covered, but are we really engaging actuality or some kind of simulacrum?

Right. Does the belief in the skivvies make the basketball player into a championship calibur player? Or is his superstitious belief superfluous?

Does it even matter?

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind.
One said, “The flag moves.”
The other said, “The wind moves.”
They argued back and forth but could not agree.

Hui-neng, the sixth patriarch, said: “Gentlemen! It is not
the flag that moves. It is not the wind that moves. It is
your mind that moves.”

The two monks were struck with awe.

Forgive my ignorance, I do not understand...

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Pathless

So, uh, can we stand the suggestion that Christianity is itself a Pagan religion?

There is certainly a slightly different trinity in Pagan traditions:

1. maiden
2. mother
3. crone

Not to mention the adoration of the Mother and child, the Queen of Heaven, the winter solstice, and the spring equinox among others.

I am not so certain Christianity at its roots is Pagan, rather it is quite Jewish. I do think there is substantial evidence to indicate that Pagan traditions were co-opted into Christianity a few hundred years into its development, for political expediency.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Paladin

So have we broached anything here that we didn't argue over in the "Function of Belief" thread? What happens when we stay in the artificial continuity that Chris so compellingly describes? Have we merely created a safe place from which we can engage our own version of reality? I mean, sure we can play more confidently if emotionally we feel our bases are covered, but are we really engaging actuality or some kind of simulacrum?

Thinking out loud again: How does one make a map of an intangible location? If, in my adventures in consciousness, I somehow find myself in a really groovy state of mind which results in some amazing vantage point of clarity or extraordinary sense of connection to the Source, how do I get back there again in the future? How can I imbue objects or actions from the physical side with special significance so that they function as a sort of map to a location in the non physical? The meaning isn't necessarily intrinsic to the natural properties of the objects, so in that sense, to an uninformed observer, my actions could appear to be entirely illogical and superstitious. This would be especially true where ritual has become, to a large extent, anachronistic, having taken on the characteristics of a classic simulacrum- the original intent having been blurred over a long period of time not unlike noise building up on an analog tape loop through constant re recording.

Chris

[Paladin]

That can become problematic Chris. People have a peak experience and then go chasing after the phenomenon, not the reality behind it. I have seen that time and again, and this is known as spiritual materialism.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Thinking out loud again: How does one make a map of an intangible location? If, in my adventures in consciousness, I somehow find myself in a really groovy state of mind which results in some amazing vantage point of clarity or extraordinary sense of connection to the Source, how do I get back there again in the future? How can I imbue objects or actions from the physical side with special significance so that they function as a sort of map to a location in the non physical? The meaning isn't necessarily intrinsic to the natural properties of the objects, so in that sense, to an uninformed observer, my actions could appear to be entirely illogical and superstitious. This would be especially true where ritual has become, to a large extent, anachronistic, having taken on the characteristics of a classic simulacrum- the original intent having been blurred over a long period of time not unlike noise building up on an analog tape loop through constant re recording.

Chris

When the meaning is lost, chaos begins...
Tao Te Ching 38
excerpt:

When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.

Compare to the "outer fringe" mentioned in Tao Te Ching 1

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Forgive my ignorance, I do not understand...

The only way you can notice the flag waving is by remembering its positions in the past, and compare it to its position in the present. You need your mind to find this continuity. (Notice how recalling a memory is a very creative process?)

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Paladin

...are we really engaging actuality or some kind of simulacrum?

I love you guys, always making me stretch my mind. I had no idea what "simulacrum" was, so...

The simulacrum has long been of interest to philosophers. In his Sophist, Plato speaks of two kinds of image-making. The first is a faithful reproduction, attempted to copy precisely the original. The second is distorted intentionally in order to make the copy appear correct to viewers. He gives an example of Greek statuary, which was crafted larger on top than bottom so that viewers from the ground would see it correctly. If they could view it in scale, they would realize it was malformed. This example from visual arts serves as a metaphor for philosophical arts and the tendency of some philosophers to distort truth in such a way that it appeared accurate unless viewed from the proper angle.[6] Nietzsche addresses the concept of simulacrum in The Twilight of the Idols, suggesting that most philosophers, by ignoring the reliable input of their senses and resorting to the constructs of language and reason, arrive at a distorted copy of reality.[7] Modern French social theorist Jean Baudrillard argues that a simulacrum is not a copy of the real, but becomes truth in its own right: the hyperreal. Where Plato saw two steps of reproduction — faithful and intentionally distorted (simulacrum) — Baudrillard sees four: (1) basic reflection of reality, (2) perversion of reality; (3) pretence of reality (where there is no model); and (4) simulacrum, which “bears no relation to any reality whatever.” Baudrillard uses the concept of god as an example of simulacrum.[8] In Baudrillard’s concept, like Nietzsche’s, simulacra are negatively perceived, but another modern philosopher who addressed the topic, Gilles Deleuze, takes a different view, seeing simulacra as the avenue by which accepted ideals or “privileged position” could be “challenged and overturned.”[9]

Simulacrum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I presume the discussion is about the philosophical application of the term, although the artistic application of the term is quite telling as well.