Beginnings...

[Prober]

Okay, I've got to ask...

I've read some posts about not taking Genesis literally.

What are your thoughts on the beginning of life and what's the story of the spikey 600-foot Adam?

[dauer]

Science can tell us more about the nature of the natural world than anything else, although I wouldn't hold my breath thinking modern cosmologies will hold forever either, but better to use that as a basis than clinging to the old mythical paradigms of how the world works.

Judaism supports this with an evolving understanding of the universe, first beginning with something mythical to understand the world, the creation of the world in bereshit, then when that no longer fit the way we understood reality, taking it as allegorical.

Dauer

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by dauer

the creation of the world in bereshit,

Dauer

Sorry, to interupt... How do you prounounce that word?

[Dondi]

Bereshit, like bear sh!t, I think.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by dauer

Science can tell us more about the nature of the natural world than anything else, although I wouldn't hold my breath thinking modern cosmologies will hold forever either, but better to use that as a basis than clinging to the old mythical paradigms of how the world works.

Judaism supports this with an evolving understanding of the universe, first beginning with something mythical to understand the world, the creation of the world in bereshit, then when that no longer fit the way we understood reality, taking it as allegorical.

Dauer

I guess I'm still holding on to a literal torah concept. It's a pretty tough position from which to return.

What about the 600-foot spikey Adam thing?

[flowperson]

Modern science teaches us that endings and beginnings are one in the same thing and mingle together in chaotic events and within their time periods. The "initial conditions" of any natural system that continues on in time is extremely sensitive to the components of its beginnings and its environments. When the components of the "initial conditions" begin to break down, the onset of phase changes and chaotic episodes become more prevalent.

flow....

[dauer]

Sorry, to interupt... How do you prounounce that word?

It rhymes somewhat with "hooray! Sleet." or "er... Hey Pete." or "sure tastes sweet." in one of the ways to transliterate hebrew, a long "e" sound becomes "i." Personally I'm not fond of transliteration at all and would much rather have the Hebrew.

What about the 600-foot spikey Adam thing?

Is that a midrash? Midrash isn't necessarily taken literally. Drash is the level of interpretation that is more exegetical, allegorical. The only folks who treat midrash as something meant to always be literal are some ultra-orthodox, and that's simply their reaction to the modern era and to the ideas of the enlightenment. They make more and more things concrete, both in right-belief and right-action, meaning in regard to action that what were before customs become extensions of the halachic system, necessary for affiliation with those communities. All forms of Judaism existing today are essentially one response or another in confronting the enlightenment and the modern era, and how to on one extreme react and completely shut oneself from the world and on the other extreme assimilate and lose Jewish identity. Most folks fall somewhere in the middle.

Dauer

[Prober]

Originally Posted by flowperson

The "initial conditions" of any natural system that continues on in time is extremely sensitive to the components of its beginnings and its environments. When the components of the "initial conditions" begin to break down, the onset of phase changes and chaotic episodes become more prevalent.

flow....

then, at some point, natural selection takes over...and people become liberals or conservatives.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by dauer

Is that a midrash?

Yeah, something BB said...thought it might be a good story...

All forms of Judaism existing today are essentially one response or another in confronting the enlightenment and the modern era, and how to on one extreme react and completely shut oneself from the world and on the other extreme assimilate and lose Jewish identity. Most folks fall somewhere in the middle.

Dauer

This sounds like what Flow was saying.

If you've shut yourself off from the world your whole life, how do you come back and not lose yourself?

How do you remember where you came from and not turn into a dinosaur as time passes?

[dauer]

Prober,

yeah, exactly. It's like you fossilize. When that happens, something integral, some quality about you has changed. But then you stop changing. You stay the same way you are indefinitely, and are probably much more appropriate to a museum than the living, changing world. But on the other end also, if you completely embrace everything change, letting go of everything that make you who you are, you lose your identity in a bland universal soup.

Dauer

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Bereshit, like bear sh!t, I think.

So as I thought... Does a bear (blank) in the woods? No it creates worlds..


Dauer... Hey pete? Cool...

[dauer]

On a recent family guy, God created the world by farting. I think he may have lit it on fire, but not sure.

Dauer

[Prober]

Originally Posted by dauer

On a recent family guy, God created the world by farting. I think he may have lit it on fire, but not sure.

Dauer

I just saw that one! His "bud" handed him the lighter and the "big bang" occured.

Not drash?

[Prober]

Okay. Something that's been bugging me...

If the world was not created in six days, how is Shabbos meaningful?

I realize that this is tied to my view of Shabbos as a memorial of G-d's creation. Perhaps it's not thought of that way any more.

Perhaps a better question is "What is the purpose and meaning of Shabbos?".
Maybe that's too big a question.

Shabbos is about time, right?

These are not "trip you up" questions...Just trying to find the truth.

Please share your thoughts.

Thanks,
Mark

[dauer]

Prober,

just because the myth is not taken literally does not mean the 7 days of creation are no longer tied to the days of the week. The names of the days of the week in hebrew are all numbered and then Shabbat is called by name. Even when it's not taken literally, the rhythm still remains the same. I had a profesor who would say that musically, it's like the other days are the regular notes and Shabbos is like a rest note. Shabbat is also linked in the Torah to the exodus from mitzrayim, and both ideas are important.

Perhaps a better question is "What is the purpose and meaning of Shabbos?".
Maybe that's too big a question.

Yes, that is a really really big question to give a good, thorough answer. I will only state here that important to shabbos are the dual concepts conveyed by the words vayinafash which is what God did on the 7th day of creation. It can mean that God ceased from creative acts, and it can also mean that God ensouled the world, nefesh being one of the hebrew words for soul. There is in fact one interpretation that the 7th day was a day of creation of sorts, and God was creating rest. But if you really want to learn more about shabbat I would suggest first:

MyJewishLearning.com - Daily Life: Shabbat

If you'd prefer a good cover of everything instead of just wandering through the essays, there is guided learning in the column on the left. Jewfaq is good too, but less thorough in covering everything and only from one particular perspective instead of many.

Shabbos is about time, right?

It can be understood that way, as almost a time outside of time. Heschel liked to call it an island of time and would talk about it as a time to be instead of to do. I think there may be an essay from him or about him on that site. He also wrote a book called The Sabbath that's a classic, and a really beautiful heartfelt work. He loved to get really poetic. Shabbos starts and ends not at a fixed hour, but is instead determined by the position of the sun and stars in the sky which really helps to make it feel like something separate and distinct from regular time. It doesn't follow the same rules as the rest of the week. Shabbat is also called a taste of olam haba which is the world-to-come, can either mean the time after the messiah comes or the afterlife. But there are just so many themes and idea connected to it. It's such a central thing in Judaism. It's not an accident that myjewishlearning puts it under daily life and practice instead of holidays. Sometimes it's compared to a bride or a queen, related to the Shechinah, the divine feminine that is the indwelling presence of God. But that site I gave really should be pretty good for an overview of a lot of the different concepts, from the different denominational perspectives. I'm not sure actually if it covers the melachot well, the types of work traditionally not allowed on shabbat, but there are sites you can find if you do a search.

Dauer