Baptizement required? - Page 2

wil · 01-09-2006, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Jesus in Matt.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Ok, so neither of these mention water....from Jesus. Peter did, but not Jesus. and the John quotes are exactly what I remembered...he will baptize you with the holy spirit...

So again, to me, water seems to be backing up...not going forward with our elder brothers teachings...

Bandit · 01-09-2006, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Ok, so neither of these mention water....from Jesus. Peter did, but not Jesus. and the John quotes are exactly what I remembered...he will baptize you with the holy spirit...

So again, to me, water seems to be backing up...not going forward with our elder brothers teachings...

1)are you saying the Apostles were 'backing up' & not going forward with the commandments & teaching of Jesus because they were baptising people with water?

Since Jesus baptised with the Holy Ghost & the Apostles baptised with water & the commandment was given to the apostles (TO BAPTISE) & Peter was doing what Jesus told them to do......

2)how in the world do you conclude that Matt 28:19 is not refering to water?

Peter was given the keys to the kingdom & the Apostles did what Jesus told them to do. JTB simply prepared the way of Jesus.

3)Are you trying to tell me that the commandments Jesus gave the apostles were not what they were doing & are you making what the Apostles did to the less effect of what Jesus told them to do?

It looks to me like the Apostles were very much so going forward & doing what they were commanded by JESUS.

Acts1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Quahom1 · 01-09-2006, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Ok, so neither of these mention water....from Jesus. Peter did, but not Jesus. and the John quotes are exactly what I remembered...he will baptize you with the holy spirit...

So again, to me, water seems to be backing up...not going forward with our elder brothers teachings...

To baptise is a physical and spiritual symbol of cleansing, as well as a commitment (by the person, or by the child's wards), to follow/teach in the ways of the Savior. It is not however, a prerequisite for getting into heaven. If that were true, we could all get dunked or splashed and that would guarantee our way through the pearly gates, regardless of what we did here on earth.

To Christine a child in death or dying, is strictly a comfort to the living, and a way of giving the child back to God, clean. It also validates the child as a human being (again to the living).

I do not see how dedicating one's self, or dedicating a child to God, is going backwards. But if it is, then all I need is a mirror to see where I'm backing up to...

v/r

Q

wil · 01-09-2006, 08:50 PM

Quote:

1)are you saying the Apostles were 'backing up' & not going forward with the commandments & teaching of Jesus because they were baptising people with water?

Since Jesus baptised with the Holy Ghost & the Apostles baptised with water & the commandment was given to the apostles (TO BAPTISE) & Peter was doing what Jesus told them to do......

2)how in the world do you conclude that Matt 28:19 is not refering to water?

I'm trying to understand.. John said what? that he baptized with water and Jesus would do so with spirit... I don't find where Jesus told Peter to do so...

and I think by conjecture of previoius scripture I conclude w/o water much as you conclude w/water...as water isn't referenced...

of course the words of the day had so much meaning, more than just the 'name' and my understanding is also that often when we read in the name of Jesus, it is refering to the traits of Jesus, ie in his way, like him, in his nature...

Quahom1 · 01-09-2006, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I'm trying to understand.. John said what? that he baptized with water and Jesus would do so with spirit... I don't find where Jesus told Peter to do so...

and I think by conjecture of previoius scripture I conclude w/o water much as you conclude w/water...as water isn't referenced...

of course the words of the day had so much meaning, more than just the 'name' and my understanding is also that often when we read in the name of Jesus, it is refering to the traits of Jesus, ie in his way, like him, in his nature...

1 Peter 3:21

InChristAlways · 01-09-2006, 09:07 PM

Quote:

people come up with all kinds of things for this. yes, no , maybe, when, how, this happens-that happens....
i have always heard it from catholics & some protestants also & that it is for the remission of sin. but through history there have been many different opinions within each denomination.

so do you go with what people say or go with what the bible says?
it is real simple. IMO-

if you dont want to be baptised then dont be baptised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil
Ok, so neither of these mention water....from Jesus. Peter did, but not Jesus. and the John quotes are exactly what I remembered...he will baptize you with the holy spirit...

So again, to me, water seems to be backing up...not going forward with our elder brothers teachings...

Quote:

To baptise is a physical and spiritual symbol of cleansing, as well as a commitment (by the person, or by the child's wards), to follow/teach in the ways of the Savior. It is not however, a prerequisite for getting into heaven. If that were true, we could all get dunked or splashed and that would guarantee our way through the pearly gates, regardless of what we did here on earth.

I have another question.

Could the water baptism be a type of "OT fulfillment" since Jesus also was batized to fulfill all righteousness.

For example, in the OT, the Priests had to "wash" in the "Laver" before entering in the Tabernacle as an example, and since Jesus is our High Priest, perhaps that is what it symbolzed.

Another words, Christ waited about 30 yrs to be baptized and to minster the Gospel, and why I have difficulty in understanding the purpose of Him getting baptized. I myself was baptized in the Gulf of Mexico by a pastor friend of mine and could almost view it as being in the Jordan river during Jesus's days.

But to this day, I don't really know whether I did it as a commandment or to follow what Jesus had done to Him by JTB and therefore acknowlede Him as my Savior, King and High Priest [which I also do "figuratively" from the "rooftops"].
Steve

Matthew 3:15 But Jesus answering said to him, `Suffer now, for thus it is becoming to us to fulfil [#4137] all righteousness [#1343],' then he doth suffer him.

Bandit · 01-09-2006, 09:15 PM

i would like to put aside wether water baptism is a requirement or wether it is not. just for a minute put aside all the reasons for doing what Jesus told us to do concerning water & put to the side the Acts of the Apostles, for just a minute.

put to the side, the thief on the cross who we know was saved, because that is another argument people use & the commandment for water is not even recorded until just before Jesus ascended.

put aside the baptism of the Holy Ghost as well, so the two baptisms are not confused.

put the requirement question to the side for moment.
put to the side who said do what & who said what.

this here in Hebrews tells me Paul was still teaching doctrine of baptism(s) & includes baptism(s)-plural, as principles of the doctrine of Christ. (not more than one doctrine, but more than one baptism)

Quote:

6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

forget the reasons WHY & HOW & WHEN & WHY NOT. and please...
i challenge anyone to render a passage that clearly tells us NOT to be water baptised (as in a commandment NOT to do so).

Bandit · 01-09-2006, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I'm trying to understand.. John said what? that he baptized with water and Jesus would do so with spirit... I don't find where Jesus told Peter to do so...

and I think by conjecture of previoius scripture I conclude w/o water much as you conclude w/water...as water isn't referenced...

of course the words of the day had so much meaning, more than just the 'name' and my understanding is also that often when we read in the name of Jesus, it is refering to the traits of Jesus, ie in his way, like him, in his nature...

then what you are saying is the Apostles could baptise with the Holy Ghost if you are saying Jesus was not refering to water in Matt 28:19.

Thomas · 01-09-2006, 10:53 PM

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6

His life IS the way - "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" (Matthew 16:24).

And His way is the way of his Father - "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" John 1:18

So when Jesus accepted baptism at John's hand, it was for our sake, not his, and the Trinitarian Presence (the voice from heaven and the descent of the dove) signifies that by baptism man enters into the life of God.

John said "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost" (Mark 1:8) - but when John baptised Christ the Holy Spirit manifested his Presence - as He does in the case of all baptism, because by that action Jesus elevated baptism from a symbol to a sacrament.

Thus whilst the act of baptism can be read as symbol on a number of levels - death and rebirth, spiritual purification - indeed Jesus's baptism in the Jordan is a symbol and summation of the Old Testament, for the Jordan separates the Wilderness from The Promised Land - what is unique (in the OT as well as the NT) is that these events are not symbols of some ethereal and numinous 'otherness', but actually happened in 'real time' and in a 'real place' - they are the myths of the world made real.

So we continue to perform baptism according to its foundation. The substance of the form has been simplified (and amplified) but the essence remains the same. Thus total immersion is not necessary (quality, not quantity) - 1 drop of water will do it - but if we say the physical act is not necessary, only the intention, then we deny the presence of both God and ourselves.

Thomas

wil · 01-09-2006, 11:26 PM

Thank you all...

Peter 3:21 refers to the water signifying the flood...

Thomas refers to the Jordan signifying the seperation wilderness from the promise land..

yes I agree we all need to cross the Jordan (get to the other side), and we get to G-d by living the way, the nature of Jesus

And now we want to prove that water is required because nowhere it says it isn't required...or forbidden.

Yes I think there exists a spiritual baptism, a crossing of the Jordan, an accepting that you are in the wilderness and a willingness to follow our elder borther and wayshower to get out...

But does someone have to sprinkle some water made holy by some ceremony, or does one need to be dunked in a tank or a river...is it required that someone holier than thou, or with some such credentials perform such feat?

To me that is how I read the question...

And I think, neither water, nor someone sanctioned by someone else, need perform it...me thinks it is between you and the master...

I for one am perfectly happy that people have their religious traditions and ceremonies. That some dunk and some sprinkle, that one says this chant and another this method. It is all wonderful. But does that mean it has to be imposed on others? The vagaries in the text opened the door for and allowed there to exist so many denominations...

taijasi · 01-10-2006, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

And I think, neither water, nor someone sanctioned by someone else, need perform it...me thinks it is between you and the master...

Wil, I think you have put it quite clearly here. And Intuitively, we should all know that this is true!

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I for one am perfectly happy that people have their religious traditions and ceremonies. That some dunk and some sprinkle, that one says this chant and another this method. It is all wonderful. But does that mean it has to be imposed on others?

Indeed, the spirit of Ecumenism and Inclusiveness is greater ... than that of ex-clusiveness. S/he who cannot understand a God whose love (and the living expression of whose love) embraces all creatures, and all of creation ... does not understand God at all.

As for Baptism symbolizing the purification necessary before we encounter God face to face ... Christ put it thus, in the Sermon on the Mount:

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matthew 5:8)

How pure do we have to be? Well ... if you're certain you're there, cast the first stone. Word ...

Andrew

lunamoth · 01-10-2006, 12:17 AM

Well, so far I have not seen one person say that baptism is a requirement for salvation (whatever that means...). I have seen people explain why baptism is a sacrament of the Catholic and some other churches, and I have seen people say why they feel the Bible supports baptism by water. I've learned some interesting things about how the Church views baptism why various people find it meaningful. All good things.

peace,
lunamoth

Bandit · 01-10-2006, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Thank you all...

To me that is how I read the question...

And I think, neither water, nor someone sanctioned by someone else, need perform it...me thinks it is between you and the master...

I for one am perfectly happy that people have their religious traditions and ceremonies. That some dunk and some sprinkle, that one says this chant and another this method. It is all wonderful. But does that mean it has to be imposed on others? The vagaries in the text opened the door for and allowed there to exist so many denominations...

so kind of like that would mean that Jesus & the Apostles were imposing on others, every time they taught something people were being imposed on.

well you got that right, because they were pushed away by the masses & it even got them crucified & murdered, but not before they got the Gospel & foundation of Jesus out, & they did teach water baptsim as well as spirit baptism and many many other things.

Bandit · 01-10-2006, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

So when Jesus accepted baptism at John's hand, it was for our sake, not his, and the Trinitarian Presence (the voice from heaven and the descent of the dove) signifies that by baptism man enters into the life of God.

John said "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost" (Mark 1:8) - but when John baptised Christ the Holy Spirit manifested his Presence - as He does in the case of all baptism, because by that action Jesus elevated baptism from a symbol to a sacrament.

Thomas

not sure about this part Thomas. i dont think everyone is just automatically entered just because of water or the Holy Ghost manifests everytime. Simon the sorcerer 'believed & was baptised' but he was also denied the gift (baptism) of the Holy Ghost and told to do what?.

Repent.

Bandit · 01-10-2006, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Well, so far I have not seen one person say that baptism is a requirement for salvation (whatever that means...). I have seen people explain why baptism is a sacrament of the Catholic and some other churches, and I have seen people say why they feel the Bible supports baptism by water. I've learned some interesting things about how the Church views baptism why various people find it meaningful. All good things.

peace,
lunamoth

yah. i dont think water -by itself- saves anyone...there is more to it than that. i have always seen a package deal in the good book.

i suppose there could be many intentions for why people get baptised or baptise others, but i think repentance is probably the greater of the two & naturally faith is what gets the ball rolling.