Baha'i Fatih and Manichaeism

[Postmaster]

The Baha'i faith claims 6 million members around the world and is a growing religion, the faith claims to be the latest message of God and captures mans mind by its philosophical assertions. I researched the Baha'i faith as I have my own religion and became very familiar with its theology and teachings.

Recently I was researching a religion called Manichaeism, I can find know other material, sites or articles on the net that talks about a connection between the 2 religions, so I could well be the first person to ever spot this connection! And this raises many questions towards the Baha'i faith!

Manichaeism is a religion that came out of Zoroastrianism from the Persian ruled city of Bagdad by a Man called Mani about 200AD to 300AD, the prophet founder of Manichaeism is coincidently direct ancestry to the prophet founder of the Baha'i faith known as Baha'u'llah about 1850AD, this is because when reading about the Baha'i faith they make effort to point out Baha'u'llah was Persian royal descent and also Mani's mother was Persian royalty too. Many people will be familiar with the fact that most royal families across the world have a very good sense of genealogy and history going back hundreds and hundreds of years.

Manichaeism is a religion that died down even though it had influence from western Europe to the Far East, Christian saints who were orignally part of the relgion converted to christianity and discredited the religion and other Christian followers wrote books to discredit the faith from both theology and reason. It was also cosidered heretical by Zoroastrianism. If there is a connection it raises many questions towards the Baha'i faith and the idea of progresive relavation.

As you see I started a thread in the Baha'i forum
Baha'i faith influenced off an other relgion?


Thoughs of you aware of the Baha'i theology will see the conenction more clearly.

Mani viewed himself as the final successor in a long line of prophets, beginning with Adam and including Buddha, Zoroaster, and Jesus. He viewed earlier revelations of the true religion as being limited in effectiveness because they were local, taught in one language to one people. Moreover, later adherents lost sight of the original truth. Mani regarded himself as the carrier of a universal message destined to replace all other religions. Hoping to avoid corruption and to ensure doctrinal unity, he recorded his teachings in writing and gave those writings canonical status during his lifetime.

Mani viewed himself as the final successor in a long line of prophets, beginning with Adam and including Buddha, Zoroaster, and Jesus. He viewed earlier revelations of the true religion as being limited in effectiveness because they were local, taught in one language to one people. Moreover, later adherents lost sight of the original truth. Mani regarded himself as the carrier of a universal message destined to replace all other religions. Hoping to avoid corruption and to ensure doctrinal unity, he recorded his teachings in writing and gave those writings canonical status during his lifetime.

[I, Brian]

What would be interesting would be to compare the actual geneaologies involved - the problem I see here is that you seem to be presuming that there's a general unborken line of nobility over the 1600 years or so between Mani and Baha'u'llah - but Persia underwent major political changes over this period, under the Sassanids, Romans, Byzantine, Mongols, and of course, Islam. Claiming that royal families could have continued unbroken during this time would be interesting - but it's worth underlining even the Romans under Augustus had serious problems keeping distinguished houses of Roman nobility alive.

2c.

[Postmaster]

You have a point Brian! But often reading Baha'i websites they claim that the line of royalty Baha'u'llah followed is ancient. I don't really have time to do the research, but even if there is no blood line, I'm sure the theology is connected regardless.

[Postmaster]

Searching the net, I found sites that cover the issue! So it's not new! This is from a Baha'i site!

The primary Bahá'í writings make no mention of Manichaeism. However, two articles have considered the role and person of its founder, Mání, and the relation of the religion to the Bahá'í Faith. The most complete Bahá'í analysis of Manichaeism is Daniel Keith Conner's "Mani and Manichaeism: A Study in Religious Failure," in World Order, 11.2 (Winter 1976-77). Christopher Buck has also briefly discussed Mání, whom he considers the first figure in history to have consciously pursued the role of world-prophet, in "A Unique Eschatological Interface: Bahá'u'lláh and Cross-Cultural Messianism," in Peter Smith, ed., Studies in Bábí and Bahá'í History, volume 3.

[I, Brian]

Glad to see you've found references - hopefully the studies make for interesting reading.

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

[color=black]The Baha'i faith claims 6 million members around the world and is a growing religion, the faith claims to be the latest message of God and captures mans mind by its philosophical assertions. I researched the Baha'i faith as I have my own religion and became very familiar with its theology and teachings.

I have studied the Baha'i Faith my whole life (I am 59 years old). You have studied the Baha'i Faith what an hour or two, a day or two, how long, I ask?

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Manichaeism is a religion that came out of Zoroastrianism from the Persian ruled city of Bagdad by a Man called Mani about 200AD to 300AD, the prophet founder of Manichaeism is coincidently direct ancestry to the prophet founder of the Baha'i faith known as Baha'u'llah about 1850AD, this is because when reading about the Baha'i faith they make effort to point out Baha'u'llah was Persian royal descent and also Mani's mother was Persian royalty too.

Well, I ask you to don't state it unless you can prove it. We have discussed this on the other thread, Postmaster, and their have been no conclusions any of us could come up with. So at this point, I would have to say that Baha'u'llah is NOT a direct descendent of Mani. But if it was true, I don't get the significance. By simply stating that the relationship exists does not make it true and, in spite of the 1600 years seperating them, to think that this relationship would hold some sort of meaning to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is ludicrous.

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Manichaeism is a religion that died down even though it had influence from western Europe to the Far East, Christian saints who were orignally part of the relgion converted to christianity and discredited the religion and other Christian followers wrote books to discredit the faith from both theology and reason.

I am curious, Postmaster. Do you believe a religion of God could "die down"? Or could this be an indication of a religion of man and, if that is the case, why are you so ardently trying to connect this vague entity in the far past with Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith?

Originally Posted by Postmaster

It was also cosidered heretical by Zoroastrianism. If there is a connection it raises many questions towards the Baha'i faith and the idea of progresive relavation.

What questions does it raise? Who would raise them? You or your church? Baha'is sit on Cooperating Church Councils across America. They are leaders of Unity of Religion forums. So who is doing the questioning? Not the Christian churches in America, it would seem. It would seem to come only from individual zealots, not yet ready to embrace "Unity" and dogmatically entrenched in their "own" belief system.

Originally Posted by Postmaster

As you see I started a thread in the Baha'i forum
Baha'i faith influenced off an other relgion?


Thoughs of you aware of the Baha'i theology will see the conenction more clearly.

I am very familiar with Baha'i theology and I don't see a connection at all.

I would have to say, Postmaster, that I see your posts on the Baha'i thread and here as attempts to hi-jack serious discussion. To label a thread "Baha'i" and then pronounce in the first message that you view the Baha'i Faith as a "cult", would be an attack considered vicious and provacative in my world, to say the least. Since it was allowed by the admins/moderators, it would also seem to reflect on the board as well. I do not spend a lot of time in the other religion threads. I, like most of us, have a limited time I can spend on message boards. Is this sort of attack common on the other religion threads, such as a Christian attacking a Moslim, or vice-versa, or any of the numerous combinations that one could come up with?

Postmaster, why are you spending so much time on the Baha'i Faith? I used to think you were curious, but now it seems you were simply looking for ways to attack. If you find this Great Religion to be cultish, I would suggest you hightail it out of here. By the way, many of the Cult warning websights underline the fact that the only cults they are worried about profess to be of a Christian nature.

Mick



[/quote]

[Mick]

Postmaster,

As i posted to another thread, if you have an interest in the genealogy of Baha'u'llah, go to

http://www.misfitscentral.net/Files%...or_friends.htm

This is a page we set-up on our commercial site to share larger files with friends. This isn't a particularly large file but it is a convenient place to land it. It is a PDF file and you can open it on the site or download to your computer.

Mick

[Postmaster]

I hae seen geneology on the net of Baha'u'llah going back to about 500AD from the same blood line from a Baha'i site.

God is unexplainable and there are different paths, it's up to us to pick the right one. I don’t believe in salvation from knowledge and reason. I believe in salvation from kindness and sacrifice, just like mother Teresa, she came out of the Christian faith. Life is mystical, u can't explain it in any amount of literature. She was a great lady, many say she produced miracles..... Yet no mention of the Baha'i faith in her life.

[brucegdc]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I hae seen geneology on the net of Baha'u'llah going back to about 500AD from the same blood line from a Baha'i site.

God is unexplainable and there are different paths, it's up to us to pick the right one. I don’t believe in salvation from knowledge and reason. I believe in salvation from kindness and sacrifice, just like mother Teresa, she came out of the Christian faith. Life is mystical, u can't explain it in any amount of literature. She was a great lady, many say she produced miracles..... Yet no mention of the Baha'i faith in her life.

Good gracious, Postmaster - you're hanging on to this theory like the guy was Greek or something...

... Bruce (who was expecting that claim any day, knowing Postmaster)

[Postmaster]

Well Brucegdc I'm convinced there is a better way to God. And it's through Jesus Christ, only Jesus Christ. Humans have been the same for the past 100'000 years! God seen we were worthy of Christ and so he sent him to save us. The rest of us choose something different and the bible warned us of the fakes.

[I, Brian]

It's not really a very comparative argument, though, is it?

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Well Brucegdc I'm convinced there is a better way to God. And it's through Jesus Christ, only Jesus Christ. Humans have been the same for the past 100'000 years! God seen we were worthy of Christ and so he sent him to save us. The rest of us choose something different and the bible warned us of the fakes.

Postmaster,

I am pleased you know who you are and I would hope you would feel the same about me. I know who I am and I know the truths that I have recognized, as it seems you "kind of" do. Isn't there a large group of Christians that claim, based on the Bible, that the Earth and humans only have an 18,000 year history? Well, that's beside the point.

I am curious why you were so insistent concerning this Mani guy, first in the Baha'i thread and then here in comparative studies. It seems you were attempting to denigrate the Baha'i Faith. Now I think that maybe you have felt threatened by the Baha'i Faith and that maybe that was your motivation. I hope not, though. Religion should not be the cause of disharmony. We should look for those things that are similiar and rejoice in them and each other.

If the journey you have chosen to take is the correct one and is the exclusive path to God, then I congratulate you on your choice and wish you well on your journey. I would hope you could do the same for me and not hope that I will end in some sort of chastising eternal void.

If you ever want to have a comparative religious discussion concerning Christianity and the Baha'i Faith, I would welcome it. If you ever see a need to ask a question about the Baha'i Faith or any of its history, I would enjoy trying to answer it.

warmly,

Mick Zellar

[Postmaster]

Brian it is comparative, because I respect Micks choice and I believe he respects mine, we are expressing the reason for our faith in discussion which is great form of comparative dialogue.

Isn't there a large group of Christians that claim, based on the Bible, that the Earth and humans only have an 18,000 year history?

And in my response to that is I believe it doesn't really matter in which way you believe the world was made because even when scientists answers 1 question they reveal a million questions! Christianity is not a philosophical system it is a faith and does not require reason to the extent of your faith! However I do recognise science as God given gift but should be separate from theology as they absolutely contradict each other. The Baha'i faith says God is unknowable but science will always need proof to clarify his existence.