Baha'i Faith & Freemasonry...

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

A reason why Manichaeism didn't remain mainstream for so long was not only because of dualism, probably because Mani rejected the Old Testament in a pretty anti-semitic way, people accept something more if it has antiquity, Christianity was quikly dominating Europe also with within politics. There was plans by the early Christians of Rome to completely do away with the old testament too but they New that couldn't so eventually they embraced it, it's possible that could have adversely effected Christianity.

It is not a sign of a Prophet in the line of Abraham to REJECT the Old Testament wchich honors Abraham as a Prophet. A true Prophet always honors those Who came before Him and praises He Who shall follow.

As to the Faith of Mani and it's nature as a Revelation of God:

"O My people! Be not perplexed should the 350 star of My presence disappear, and the ocean of My utterance be stilled. In My presence among you there was the wisdom of God, and in My absence from you there is yet another, inscrutable to all but the One, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of effulgent glory, and will graciously aid whosoever striveth for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the celestial Concourse and a company of Our chosen angels."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 349)
"Do Thou kindle in their hearts the flame of Thy divine attraction and grant that the bird of love and understanding may sing within their hearts. Grant that they may be even as potent signs, resplendent standards, and perfect as Thy Word. Exalt by them thy Cause, unfurl Thy banners and publish far and wide the wonders. Make by them Thy Word triumphant, and strengthen the loins of Thy loved ones. Unloose their tongues to laud Thy Name, and inspire them to do Thy holy will and pleasure. Illumine their faces in Thy Kingdom of holiness, and perfect their joy by aiding them to arise for the triumph of Thy Cause."
(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 201)
Part of the truth of a Prophet and His Cause is the fact that it does not die out when the presence of the Prophet in this world is ended. The cause of Abraham did not die, neither did the cause of Moses, Zoroaster, Krshna, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab or Baha`u'llah. Their followers were empowered by the life of their belief and they triumphed over adversity and continue to triumph over adversity.
None of this is true of the cause of Mani. Mani's followers did not have the energy to perpetuate the faith in the absence of Mani. Neither were they motivated by the will of God and the 'Hosts of the Celestial Concourse and His chosen Angels'. The cause died. Therefore it was not of God. It may be and in actuality is fascinating as an ideology, a philosophy, an historic phenomenon, but as a Revelation of God. . . it failed, therefore it cannot have been a Revelation of God.
I have seen many reputable scholars trace the lineage of Krshna back to Abraham. I would submit that if the lineage of Abraham can be found in Krshna in India in ancient times, then in the even more recent times of Buddha (Who was also a nobleman from India), it is equally easy to trace that lineage to Buddha.
By this day and age I think it would be much harder to find an individual who CAN'T trace his lineage to Abraham in some fashion or other. I have hundreds of thousands or even millions of ancestors, surely somewhere in the multitude Abraham is amongst them.
Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

Well we have established that Mani was not a supreme prophet I'm not trying to elevate Mani in some kind of obsessional way, hope it doesn't seem like that. The Baha'i faith tells people to independently investigate truth, and by the reason blessed upon all of us by God, I try to see a much more historically accurate version of religion compared to that of Bahá'u'lláhs theological one. Bahá'u'lláh made some very important points, he unlocked religions in a unifying and positive way that can not be measured and authorised it. But Bahá'u'lláh never had the research resources available to us, the internet, liberys and history channels. Historical evidence and discoveries has also grown hugely since then. I'm in no way trying to add to the Baha'i theology or discredit it.

There seems to be an arena of error and trial in the world of theology and prophets, and quite cynically the religion that is marketed the best is the one that usually succeeded. It's like Mithraism compared to Christianity, that was a very scary comparison. All I'm saying is, Mani influenced LATE developing Christianity, early Islam and a fundamental principle of the Baha'i faith. Yet the man has no credit to his name, like I said before I've read an article from an offical Baha'i site which was quite sympathetic to Mani. But can't be sure if I read he ever influenced anyone.

[Popeyesays]

I think Mani was influential as well, but I don't think he influenced the Revelations of Muhammad and Baha`u'llah. I see the great Prophets as saying what God wills Them to say--it's part of the contract.

Mani was not privy to that contract. He was however a large influence upon many things.

Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

I'd agree with your last post too. spot on for me.

[arthra]

Postmaster:

If there's no evidence presented that there was any connection between Freemasonry and the Baha'i Faith... How can you write:

"..it still doesn't mean the Baha'i faith is not the brainchild of the freemasons..." ?

Also you need to present evidence of how you think Manichaeism influenced Baha'i Faith.

Manichaeism was pretty much destroyed centuries ago during the Mongol invasions of central Asia and only has been available to scholars recently in translations of Sogdian and Old Uyghur and other obscure languages.

- Art

[Postmaster]

The freemasons were renowned for there architectural buildings, the conspiracy theories surrounding the freemasons has to do with there buildings in WashingtonDC. One building in particular looks very similar to that in the Baha'i world centre and the Shire of the Bab looks like it got an inspiration from another. As for evidence, can't say I have any just a conspiracy that I can't say I believe.

I will see if I can establish a link between Manichaeism and the Baha'i faith. There was something like 500 - 800 years or so that separate Manis royal family to that of Bahá'u'lláhs. I wonder if Bahá'u'lláh had access to information and resource regarding Manichaeism that not many at the time would have had due to his heretiage gains. Also non of us are yet to prove its not the same blood line but I admitt thats unlikely.

[Postmaster]

I did remember reading once on a Baha'i site that Bahá'u'lláh could trace his ancestry all the way back to Darius what do you make of that? I'm sure there was times when they lost the throne due to Mongol invasions and Islam conquests but usually to retake a throne you have to be of royal background, that is your claim and backing alone. Considering this it's possble Mani and Bahá'u'lláh could have a bloodline. Like you Arthra if you discovered you had Persian royal blood today, you would have a right to challenge the head of state of Persia so long as you have a big enough army to do it. If a royal family looses there throne they still have a lot of wealth and populairty to remain in incubation and a large enough family to wait for the raise to power again. This is why alot of royalty tend be related to each even after 100s of years of separation. Also with royalty there is an element of being divinly chosen for the role, of this they and the people used to believe.

[arthra]

Postmaster:

The freemasons were renowned for there architectural buildings, the conspiracy theories surrounding the freemasons has to do with there buildings in WashingtonDC. One building in particular looks very similar to that in the Baha'i world centre and the Shire of the Bab looks like it got an inspiration from another. As for evidence, can't say I have any just a conspiracy that I can't say I believe.

My reply:

Thanks for posting the photos... The reason the buildings look simialr is that they are all inspired by Classical design...this does not mean there is a connection between Freemasons and Baha'is. There are other buildings precious to Baha'is that are based on other traditions... For instance Bahji is more based on a Turkish Villa... The House of Worship in Panama has central American themes of the ancient Maya. The House of Worship in Samoa is influence by South Pacific culture and the House of Worship in Stutgart is thoroughly modern with no classical designs featured. Shoghi Effendi chose classical design for some of the buildings because they would be enduring and relfected the beauty and long lasting character...all of which has little to do with influence from freemasonry.

Postmaster:

I will see if I can establish a link between Manichaeism and the Baha'i faith. There was something like 500 - 800 years or so that separate Manis royal family to that of Bahá'u'lláhs. I wonder if Bahá'u'lláh had access to information and resource regarding Manichaeism that not many at the time would have had due to his heretiage gains. Also non of us are yet to prove its not the same blood line but I admitt thats unlikely.

My reply:

Mani was not actually related to the Sassanids...there was a Sassanid King who was interested in Manichaeism and some favor was shown to it but officially Zoroastrianism remained the state religion.

Postmaster:

I did remember reading once on a Baha'i site that Bahá'u'lláh could trace his ancestry all the way back to Darius what do you make of that?

My reply:

Instead of using your "memory"..why not post a link to it... I have never heard of this...

Baha'u'llah traced His ancestory to Yazdigird III the last reigning monarch of the Sassanid dynasty and the Sassanids claimed descent from Zoroaster. I have not heard of any claims about Darius but this king was centuries before Mani and so has not much relevance. Baha'u'llah's family traced itself to the Province of Nur (which means Light) in Mazindaran along the southern shores of the Caspian Sea and this was also an area that was a stronghold of Zoroastrians for some time.

- Art

[Popeyesays]

There were no Freemason lodges in Persia until after 1910. The closest (geographic) lodges were in Calcutta. The term for Freemasonry in India was a word that meant "Forgetfulness".

The best known title for the Bab was "Dikhr'u'llah" which means "Remembrance of God." This suggests to me that if the Bab had any familiarity with Freemasonry it was rejected by Him.

The Masons have many admirable qualities to their philosophy. But it's a philosophy, not a religion.

The fact is that the roots of the Baha`i Faith are clearly Islamic and within Islam it is the Shaykhi School created by Shaykh Ahmad around 1760.

Manichaeanism is dualist. The Bab and Baha`u'llah reject dualism. Mani believed Revelation ended with himself. The Bab and Baha`u'llah reject the notion that Revelation will ever end.

Academically you're barking up the petrified stump of the wrong tree.

Regards,
Scott

[Promethium]

Cool pictures, and great discussion. I actually thought the architecture of the Bahai Buildings in Haifa were influenced by Ionic architecture.

Classical Orders of Architecture

[Postmaster]

The freemason theory I don't buy, I gathered myself that choosing an architectural style might very well have nothing to do with it or maybe some Baha'i thought freemasons have good ideas and thought wouldn't it be nice if we went classical.

Do you think that there’s no chance that Baha'u'llah had the slightest clue about Manichaeism? I know the religion is somewhat different in many aspects but is there no chance that he drawn inspiration from the religion? Maybe he stumbled across it at some point in his life, maybe in a royal libery? The odds can't be that far apart for that happening. Or shall we put it down to a natural mirroring phenomenon that a Persian royal said all religions are the same just 1500 years apart.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

The freemason theory I don't buy, I gathered myself that choosing an architectural style might very well have nothing to do with it or maybe some Baha'i thought freemasons have good ideas and thought wouldn't it be nice if we went classical.

Do you think that there’s no chance that Baha'u'llah had the slightest clue about Manichaeism? I know the religion is somewhat different in many aspects but is there no chance that he drawn inspiration from the religion? Maybe he stumbled across it at some point in his life, maybe in a royal libery? The odds can't be that far apart for that happening. Or shall we put it down to a natural mirroring phenomenon that a Persian royal said all religions are the same just 1500 years apart.

Postmaster,

Manichaeism is far from a secret. I'm sure it's likely that Baha'u'llah was knowledgable about it, even without access to royal libraries or special spiritual or inherited insight, even without special theological education. He came from a noble, literate household. For that matter, Islam also shares in common with the Baha'i Faith the idea that all religions came from one source, although the Baha'i Faith takes it further in include the Eastern religions that have very different concepts from the Abrahamic God.

2 c

[Postmaster]

Quite true.. And I just want to point out im not attacking the Baha'i faith, to me it is a legitamate religion.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

The freemason theory I don't buy, I gathered myself that choosing an architectural style might very well have nothing to do with it or maybe some Baha'i thought freemasons have good ideas and thought wouldn't it be nice if we went classical.

Do you think that there’s no chance that Baha'u'llah had the slightest clue about Manichaeism? I know the religion is somewhat different in many aspects but is there no chance that he drawn inspiration from the religion? Maybe he stumbled across it at some point in his life, maybe in a royal libery? The odds can't be that far apart for that happening. Or shall we put it down to a natural mirroring phenomenon that a Persian royal said all religions are the same just 1500 years apart.

Baha`u'llah was born of the Persian nobility. They were not trained academics by any stretch of the imagination. His education in Arabic was just enough to read the Qur'an, but he was never taught to compose and write more than sign His name.

Instead He was taught how to administer His possessions, ride a horse, use a sword and function within the court of the Shah. His father was the foreign minister of Muhammad Shah, and when He passed away the Foreign Minister post was offered to Baha`u'llah. He declined and it caused some furor within the court that He should do such a thing.

""O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list. The evanescent is as nothing before Him Who is the Ever-Abiding. His all-compelling summons hath reached Me, and caused Me to speak His praise amidst all people. I was indeed as one dead when His behest was uttered. The hand of the will of thy Lord, the Compassionate, the Merciful, transformed Me."
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 11)

Baha`u'llah did not study and create a religion from His studies. It was revelation, not education. The idea of Baha`u'llah frequenting musty libraries to read nearly lost history is not reasonable. It wasn't what He did.

Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

Popeyesays with your last post I run the risk of calling Baha`u'llah a lier, now I can see why you and arthra are on the defence with the mani influence. I'm going to leave it as open verdict, simply because I will never know what went on. Maybe I should just give up totally and become an athiest.

For that matter, Islam also shares in common with the Baha'i Faith the idea that all religions came from one source, although the Baha'i Faith takes it further in include the Eastern religions that have very different concepts from the Abrahamic God.

I must admit at first I did have a concern about the Baha'i faith and how contrary it is to eastern theology for there sake and Baha'i sake, but I'm fully fine about it now. Christianity has been trying to dominate over eastern religions for years, at least the Baha'i faith would do it with more sympathy, not only theologically but also to the extent of missionary pushed. It is after all God's aim of us to all return to him after death and maybe God is trying to overwrite the reincarnation theology eventually, not to say it doesn't happen.